Author Topic: Poison Dagger fix  (Read 742 times)

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Chariot Rider

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Poison Dagger fix
« on: September 21, 2017, 02:20:59 AM »
I think it is no secret that the poisoned dagger is below par when compared to other equipment, and I would agree.  The dagger need to be fed in order to even have a chance at utility, and even if it is active the effect can be a little underwhelming when compared to other cards available to the player.  The card is also particularly annoying for players trying to remain pure as they don't want to gain the rot but burning the daggers reduce the number of dice rolled in combat or perils.  Often times this leads to the daggers clogging a players hand with a dead card for at least a couple turns, which is not very interesting in terms of gameplay.  Awhile ago, I suggested a new keyword for cards, the ember keyword, and I believe the daggers are a prime candidate for the ember keyword.  For those who didn't see my original post about it here is the link.
http://leagueofgeeks.com/forums/index.php?topic=3152.msg21178#msg21178

Poisoned Daggers
Item
Symbol: Rot
Cost: 1 rot
Effect:  In Battle, Burn a Rot to make all rolled swords poisoned.
Ember:  when burned all attacks with pierce gain poison

The suggested ember ability helps to mitegate some of the most annoying parts without completely changing the card.  Because players now have a reason to burn the card it will spend less time clogging their hand helping players get to the better cards faster.  The ability itself is quite interesting because it would make the daggers the most reliable way to poison someone besides the poisoned gift because a piercing sword is guaranteed to hit.  Pierce is rare enough in my opinion for this to be overpowered, because in most cases you will be losing a dice to trigger it.  So this is my suggestion, though it would require the devs to add the ember keyword so I have no idea how likely it is that this suggestion is going to make it into the game.  Any thoughts?  Rebuttals?  Suggestions for other cards that might be improved with the ember keyword?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 11:26:28 PM by Chariot Rider »
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dragoncrescent

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Re: Poison Dagger fix
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2017, 06:44:33 AM »
It's not a bad idea. I already strongly approve of your 'ember' idea, where some cards with extremely niche uses gain secondary, on-burn effects. I also agree Poison Dagger is kind of awful right now. I'm not sure if you can 'layer' special dice on top of each other, though.

A Piercing Poison hit would be pretty impressive. I imagine low-fight characters using something like Longbow or Hand Cannons in tandem with this ember effect. Having burned so many cards to do really only the most pitiful damage, but still getting in that Poison effect, gives non-melee heroes a chance to have some kind of meaningful combat against titans like Horace, Brun, and Magna.

Also, it's a way to punish Twiss for her sins, which I'm always in favor of! ^___^

LunarFrost

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Re: Poison Dagger fix
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2017, 08:14:43 AM »
A Piercing Poison hit would be pretty impressive. I imagine low-fight characters using something like Longbow or Hand Cannons in tandem with this ember effect. Having burned so many cards to do really only the most pitiful damage, but still getting in that Poison effect, gives non-melee heroes a chance to have some kind of meaningful combat against titans like Horace, Brun, and Magna.

Also, it's a way to punish Twiss for her sins, which I'm always in favor of! ^___^

A piercing poison hit wouldn't be impressive as it would always hit when you have pierce through Silver Lance, Iron Pike, or Thane. Lonbow and Hand Cannons wouldn't proc the effect due to it being "Swords with Pierce".

And you still wouldn't be able to have meaningful combat against titans, it would be like a bee stinging a person. They would get hurt, but you would still die.

Also the only hero that can punish twiss in combat is Thane and that still wouldn't change and not to mention this is still a one time thing.
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Chariot Rider

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Re: Poison Dagger fix
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2017, 11:04:36 AM »
A piercing poison hit wouldn't be impressive as it would always hit when you have pierce through Silver Lance, Iron Pike, or Thane. Lonbow and Hand Cannons wouldn't proc the effect due to it being "Swords with Pierce".

And you still wouldn't be able to have meaningful combat against titans, it would be like a bee stinging a person. They would get hurt, but you would still die.

Also the only hero that can punish twiss in combat is Thane and that still wouldn't change and not to mention this is still a one time thing.
I must have incorrectly typed the effect because I intended for that to be proc on "All attacks with pierce".  Fixing now. 

Why wouldn't this be useful against the titans?  The poisoned debuff in my opinion is one of the worst debuffs in the game, as it forces you to either take 3 damage or do nothing for several turns.  If you are having a hard time getting past the shields for less combat focused characters a poison debuff can at least whittle them down, or at least be a great annoyance.  A poisoned gift is quite effective in my opinion, and having more ways to spread the poison is a good thing.

I'm not sure if you can 'layer' special dice on top of each other, though.
Neither am I.  I have only used poison cards a couple times, and never with piecing attack.  Perhaps the devs would give us an answer to that question because I am legitimately curious what happens.  Either way I still think a poisoned piercing attack is a neat idea.
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LunarFrost

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Re: Poison Dagger fix
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2017, 07:00:00 PM »

Why wouldn't this be useful against the titans?  The poisoned debuff in my opinion is one of the worst debuffs in the game, as it forces you to either take 3 damage or do nothing for several turns.  If you are having a hard time getting past the shields for less combat focused characters a poison debuff can at least whittle them down, or at least be a great annoyance.  A poisoned gift is quite effective in my opinion, and having more ways to spread the poison is a good thing.

Because to proc the effect you have to get into a fight with them and most of the time they are packing 8+ dice and decent equips. So right away you're putting yourself at a very dangerous situation for the sake of doing 1-4 damage to them.

Next thing is healing stuff. There are 12 cards in the game that can heal compared to this 1 card for a special effect so any of those healing cards would more or less cancel out the poison effect or reduce the damage by a lot more then what you intend it to be.

And not to mention, unless your corrupted, you're losing a dice to make this work and if you're not Thane, you're relying on items to make this work and all that takes up space that you could be using for other cards.

I'm going to also add the fact you made the "Ember" effect stronger then the actual card itself which is a very poor way to handle that type of mechanic. If someone were to make something like that, then you want the "Ember" effect to be weaker then the card by a large amount due to burning being a required thing in Armello for every game.
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Chariot Rider

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Re: Poison Dagger fix
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2017, 03:18:33 AM »
Next thing is healing stuff. There are 12 cards in the game that can heal compared to this 1 card for a special effect so any of those healing cards would more or less cancel out the poison effect or reduce the damage by a lot more then what you intend it to be.

And not to mention, unless your corrupted, you're losing a dice to make this work and if you're not Thane, you're relying on items to make this work and all that takes up space that you could be using for other cards.

I'm going to also add the fact you made the "Ember" effect stronger then the actual card itself which is a very poor way to handle that type of mechanic. If someone were to make something like that, then you want the "Ember" effect to be weaker then the card by a large amount due to burning being a required thing in Armello for every game.
I don’t feel the ember effect is objectively stronger than the card itself, in fact you even mention that for uncorrupted players they are going to lose a dice to activate the effect, which without the proper equipment is going to be of minimal value.  I feel that the situational ember effect of the card and the lost dice are not going to fully replace the original item.  For rot players they would probably rather equip this card and gain the rot and without good items the ember ability is useless.  It just depends on your current scenario, in some ways the ember is better but in other the original card is better.
Some people think chivalry is dead but I think it just has a really bad cold