Author Topic: Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues  (Read 595 times)

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LunarFrost

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Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues
« on: September 10, 2017, 07:38:55 AM »
Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues

As we all know, Rot is terrible. The mechanics, the rewards, the treasures, the negatives, and the banes. They are all significantly weaker then any thing in-game. It's a terrible mechanic that is only in the game via lore reasons. To put it simply, this wouldn't fly in the game if it didn't revolve around it. Rot has many problems and I will go over most if not all of 'em. I want to make this post to show everyone, especially LoG that Rot needs to changes, especially after their disappointing update of 1.9.

Banes

 Banes are the first thing many players see related to rot and they are horrible under powered compared to their Guard counterpart. They rarely survive the day after they spawn and are only an issue early game to low fight heroes like Amber and Ghor. This prevents players from reliably getting rot from banes and the heavy RNG based rolls banes have prevent players from reliably death warping on banes even while giving banes a 4 dice advantage and that also prevents them from gaining rot.

Corruption

Corruption overall doesn't work. It's heavily RNG reliant, even more so then any other victory condition in Armello to date. The most reliable way to get corrupted is by the spell deck, but you need a minimum of 4 spirit for the most reliable rot victories and even then that's very iffy. By being corrupted you lose access to Stone circles which can heavily influence pathing and gets rid of the counter to dawn damage and on top of that, that chip damage stacks overtime making it real easy for anyone to kill a corrupted person after a day or two.

When you get corrupted, you aren't even guaranteed to have an advantage over the king, in fact, you could be at a MAJOR disadvantage just because you don't overtake him, so the race never ends unlike it's counterpart ; Spirit Walkers, which always have an advantage against the king and only have one real negative, but actually have benefits unlike Corruption and being a Spirit Walker is easier to achieve due to quest and constant spawning.

Cards

The cards that are related to rot are extremely weak in comparison to others in the same category for apparently no reason. Three examples are: Poisoned Dagger, Bane Blade, and Poppet.

Poisoned Dagger rarely has its ability proc'd because Pure players won't use it due to it costing rot and Rot Lords can only use 8 cards for the effect without touching rot gain, which they desperately need. Every other item is better then this card simply because they give something of benefit to the person wielding it, this card doesn't.

Bane Blade is an extremely punishing card with a good effect. This really hurts players for having it in the long run as constant fighting can cause them to die by the very item they equipped. This can be heavily exploited by other heroes to simply by pass them. Even without it's heavily punishing effect, it's still not very good, so why keep it equipped after the rot gain? You have no reason to.

Poppet is a rot card that cost rot, but Rot Lords can't use it. They pretty much kill anything with their rot bonus and rather have shields in place of Poppet. Pure players can use it, so that's plus for pure players, but as a Rot related treasure, it's bad for the playstyle its suppose to support.


High Risk ; No Reward

The way Rot is presented would seem like a "High Risk ; High Reward" type of playstyle. You undergo all these negatives and a heavy reliance on RNG and it would seem the game, in return would throw a bone your way to celebrate you going through the challenge, but the game doesn't. Rot does not have a single reward in-game and getting +1 health isn't a reward, it's padding ; something that could be good, but with the way it's treated isn't, and is simply there so it could be pointed at and called a reward by LoG.
You want to make Rot good or at least viable? Give players something to hold onto when corrupted, because right now they don't have anything to call their own unlike Spirit Walkers.

Quests

Right now, Rot quest are extremely weak reward wise and that's even if you can manage to get a rot quest at all simply due to how RNG heavy rot gain is. When you do eventually get a Rot quest in-game, if it's not a stat the person needs, most will skip it. Sure, some may go for the +2 rot out of desperation, but if that fails, then you are in a world of trouble due to having  a +1 in an area not needed/wanted and no +2 rot.
These quest have to actually reward the player with something unique other then +2 rot as they can't pick the +2 option before corruption.

The King and the Victory

Lets say you did everything right. You overtook the king, got good equips, and attacked him. At this point the fight can go two ways ; you either outright destroy the king or he outright destroys you. He can only do this because of Pride's Edge which turn your misses into dice for him which your bound to miss dice, people usually throw 7-12 on average due to you getting a massive chunk from having an advantage over the king.

If you lose then it goes to prestige leader as you killed the king ; no questions about it, OR you won. RNG was in your favor and you managed to kill the king without dying. So, what do you get from that? Tell me what you get from that.

Nothing. You went through Armello hell to get this "Rot Victory" and it's nothing special. Now answer me this, would you go for the "Rot Victory" if that was no longer a victory condition?

Let's say its now called Kingslayer, because that's basically what it is. Would you still go through all that trouble of getting corrupted, overtaking, and fighting a riskier fight for a "Kingslayer" victory condition with the only difference being a stack of dice? Odds are a person wouldn't. They would rather take the less riskier option and just go a normal Kingslayer with 0-1 rot. You have a higher chance of not dying and a higher chance of not missing due to burns covering most if not all the dice you entered the fight with and therefore a higher chance at winning.

Point is, no one would go for the "Rot Victory" if it wasn't called a "Rot Victory" and that shouldn't be the only reason to go for said victory.

---
Solutions and Suggestions.
This second portion of the post is mainly to address each of these major problems one by one and give reasonable solutions for them that would make Corruption unique for better, not for worse.

Banes

Their main problem is King's Guards as they can't even fight them at night and live.  So nerf Guards.

Corruption

Make it to where stone circles don't instantly kill someone on entrance if corrupted, make them take -2 damage with no healing, but if the corrupted being ends their turn in a stone circle or is pushed into one, they die instantly. This way they don't lose access to 1/10th of the board from a status change.

Corrupted people don't take damage from swamps and therefore reduces the huge amount of chip damage they already receive.

Make Corruption take effect at 4 rot instead of 5, so it isn't as RNG heavy and they can get access to rot quest sooner.  In addition to that, Banes should start at 3 rot, so corrupted players immediately have an advantage over Banes instead of it being a potential hit-or-miss while just starting to be corrupted.

Make their healing from killing scale with how much damage they do.
Killing = +1
Overkill = +2
Slaughter = +3
Annihilation = +4
Humiliation = +5
This would turn Banes into a reliable source of healing for them via dice chunks from rot advantage. This also applies to the King and Banes, but both of them rarely achieve anything above an overkill, so they would get +2 health at the very most.

Cards

This may sound crazy to LoG, but what about making Rot related cards have tier two effects? If the card has a natural rot symbol, it's stronger on corrupted people then on a pure person. Now I don't have an idea for what EVERY rot related card tier two effect should be, but the general feel is that they should have an extra effect or no negatives if played by a corrupted being, this would give people to have a legitimate reason to go rot.

Going rot would open up a new section of cards to use and they would be much stronger then a pure player using it.
And no, the cards don't give more rot and they would be purely positive effects that enhance the current ability of the card.

High Risk ; No Reward

If all the previous ideas were implemented in the game, then Corruption would have a Reward and still be High risk.
Dawn Damage, Stone Circle Threats, Overtaking King would still be challenges they would have to overcome on their way to the throne.

Quests

Make Rot quest give unique rewards besides +2 rot. It honestly should be given and I'm surprised it isn't.

Like, give them a Bane follower for completing the "Dark Leader" rot quest.

Give them a "King's Blood" passive for completing the "Bane Blood" quest which disables the King's Pride's Edge due to the weapon not being able to harm the King.

And many more ; 10 more to be exact, but that's its own post for a different time, this is just a suggestion for a system like that , which opens a new world of Armello for corrupted players.

The King and the Victory

Lets say all these changes make it through. In the end, the King fight is still a fight and at the end of the day is still a Kingslayer with an extra chunk of dice, but if the experience is unique and the journey isn't a pain to go through, then I could live with it being what it is.


----

Yes, I do know that you don't flat out die from Stone Circles under certain circumstances, but for all purposes you're dead as you end your turn because anything damage related that is played to you is most likely going to kill.

(More disclaimers might appear here later.)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 11:09:48 AM by LunarFrost »
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Wessolf27

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Re: Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2017, 12:43:58 PM »
Hey what if instead of discarding Poison cards, one can rework Poison in a way that benefits Rot players, in that they could have an increased chance of piercing through shields depending on their Rot value? Would that also be a good incentive for going Rot?
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LunarFrost

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Re: Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2017, 03:07:09 PM »
Hey what if instead of discarding Poison cards, one can rework Poison in a way that benefits Rot players, in that they could have an increased chance of piercing through shields depending on their Rot value? Would that also be a good incentive for going Rot?

Not really as there is very few sources of in-game poison for combat.

Snake Venom and Poisoned Dagger would still be really bad, but it would break Reaper's Trident in such a way.

Imagine having 3 silver lances all the time. Silver lance is already strong as that means you can usually push anyone you want, but with Reaper's Trident you're basically killing anything you fight which is honestly a bit unfair in that very specific scenario,

That wouldn't make rot viable, it would just make Reaper's Trident busted.
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Wessolf27

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Re: Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2017, 03:25:21 PM »
Fair enough, still, there could be mechanics that tie Rot more towards Poison by making the latter more viable in Rot builds and what not in order to make both ideas more appealing.
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LunarFrost

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Re: Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2017, 11:53:41 AM »
Fair enough, still, there could be mechanics that tie Rot more towards Poison by making the latter more viable in Rot builds and what not in order to make both ideas more appealing.

Making poison strong for Rot doesn't really change much because again, only three things : Poisoned Dagger, Snake Venom, and Reaper's Trident.

If rot is going to get better then it needs more general buffs that target it all the time instead of very specific situations.
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Chariot Rider

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Re: Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2017, 03:05:28 AM »
In my opinion, one advantage of trying to gain rot is the fact that you have access to the entire card pool, for the better in my opinion.  It wouldn't be advantageous for a player with no or low rot to play cards that gain rot for two reasons.  Firstly the damage at dawn is quite annoying and avoiding it is generally a good move if you can avoid it.  Secondly, having low amounts of rot will put you at a disadvantage in rot battles, where you will give your opponents free dice.  This means that when a player gains a single point of rot, they should gain as much rot as possible.  Instead of changing the rot system, I think that making the rot cards better would do a lot to help rot victories.  Leech and Syphon are 2 newer cards that help rot players immensely, helping them gain more rot and counter one of the downsides of rot.

I don't agree with your statement that the King fight, at least not fully.  Yes the king can steal the dice that miss for you but let's look at some statistics.  Usually by the time you fight the king you will have at least 7 rot, beating the kings 6 rot.  Even with no equipment you will gain 6 dice, putting you at an immediate advantage.  Statistically speaking 2 of the 6 dice will be attacks, 1 of 6 will be a defense, 1 of 6 will explode, and 2 will miss, giving the king 2 extra dice of your six.  However statistically you will gain more than you lose, with 3 hits and one defense, and give the king a possibility of 2 extra symbols provided nothing explodes.  In my opinion that is a pretty good scenario especially when you throw in equipment. 
Even though the king will leech some of your dice I don't feel it is quite enough to make the advantage you gain from rot null.

In the wild walker update, the devs actually made it possible for corrupted players to enter stone circles, however at a hefty price of 1 damage for every rot, making it possible but certainly not practical.  However I am fine with this because it feels a bit much more thematic.  Stone circles shouldn't t be a mild inconvenience, they make names cower in terror so having a adventurer move across them at the cost of 2 life just feels wrong. 

I agree rot quests could probably be overhauled for a good effect.

Perhaps additional healing might be ok, but perhaps you could space it out a bit as to not make rot too powerful.  Also the additional healing might not be as necessary with the addition of a couple new rot healing cards that work quite well.

These are just my first reactions so feel free to debate any points I make.
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LunarFrost

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Re: Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2017, 05:52:53 PM »
In my opinion, one advantage of trying to gain rot is the fact that you have access to the entire card pool, for the better in my opinion. 

It wouldn't be advantageous for a player with no or low rot to play cards that gain rot for two reasons.  Firstly the damage at dawn is quite annoying and avoiding it is generally a good move if you can avoid it.  Secondly, having low amounts of rot will put you at a disadvantage in rot battles, where you will give your opponents free dice.  This means that when a player gains a single point of rot, they should gain as much rot as possible.

Instead of changing the rot system, I think that making the rot cards better would do a lot to help rot victories.  Leech and Syphon are 2 newer cards that help rot players immensely, helping them gain more rot and counter one of the downsides of rot.

Everyone has access to the same cards, it's just that people going rot have more of a reason to play those cards over pure players.

Pure players have stone circles to counter dawn damage. And while yes, low rot does give others advantage, you usually have something Banes and the King don't have ; equips. You get a huge variety of equips that a lot you to anywhere from tanky to a glass cannon, you're 3 equips is usually enough to offset this downside if you're at 3 rot or below.

Gaining 1 point of rot doesn't mean you should just go for it, you should try to avoid as many sources as possible in the case you get 1 rot. The only reason you would go rot is because you got an influx of rot costing cards. if you try to go rot otherwise you will most likely fail.

While I do agree making rot cards better is a way to make rot better, changing some of the very poor mechanics is greatly needed as currently rot is 0% positive and 100% negative in it's overall outcome. And yes, Leech does help a bit, but Syphon is really bad. It cost way too much. Both cards don't really change rot overall as much as you think it does. And neither Leech or Syphon counter any downsides at all.


I don't agree with your statement that the King fight, at least not fully.  Yes the king can steal the dice that miss for you but let's look at some statistics.  Usually by the time you fight the king you will have at least 7 rot, beating the kings 6 rot.  Even with no equipment you will gain 6 dice, putting you at an immediate advantage.  Statistically speaking 2 of the 6 dice will be attacks, 1 of 6 will be a defense, 1 of 6 will explode, and 2 will miss, giving the king 2 extra dice of your six.  However statistically you will gain more than you lose, with 3 hits and one defense, and give the king a possibility of 2 extra symbols provided nothing explodes.  In my opinion that is a pretty good scenario especially when you throw in equipment. 
Even though the king will leech some of your dice I don't feel it is quite enough to make the advantage you gain from rot null.

You're statistics don't apply here. There is no average number for rot vs the king as the status itself is highly varied from game to game for both the player and the king. A high number of dice in the king fight isn't an advantage as you put it. In a straight roll, you will either get walled or berserked due missing about 5 dice with a 12 dice average because an explosion is basically +1 die.

And the king has a 7 dice at base. With +5 dice from misses, that makes it 12. The king will explode at least twice making that 14 dice with only missing 2 dice making it at least 12 value as a statistic. That's more then your 7.

You don't have an advantage in the king fight while corrupted and overtaking. The "advantage" will come down to burns and equips that you have which everyone has access to.


In the wild walker update, the devs actually made it possible for corrupted players to enter stone circles, however at a hefty price of 1 damage for every rot, making it possible but certainly not practical.  However I am fine with this because it feels a bit much more thematic.  Stone circles shouldn't t be a mild inconvenience, they make names cower in terror so having a adventurer move across them at the cost of 2 life just feels wrong. 

I agree rot quests could probably be overhauled for a good effect.

Perhaps additional healing might be ok, but perhaps you could space it out a bit as to not make rot too powerful.  Also the additional healing might not be as necessary with the addition of a couple new rot healing cards that work quite well.

I'm not fine with that as you still die. Unless you are on the the crisp of corruption (5) you will always die to it without outside influence and even with my suggestion of -2 health on enter, that isn't mild at all. That's 1/3 of most heroes' health which is a lot especially with chip damage from dawn and swamps and any spells players play to you.

Lore wise Stone Circles aren't feared...by anyone or anything. Corrupted beings just move around them. And if your "Adventurer" is corrupted, they aren't an adventurer any more, they are a Rot Lord.

My "Healing by Killing Chart" isn't too strong. It helps a lot for rot, but it isn't broken as they would get +1-2 most of the time. And I rather have additional healing passively rather then from new cards as passive effects are much stronger then any card.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

Blake Mizzi

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Re: Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2017, 02:42:38 PM »
Sorry for coming in a little late to this thread :)

I've been meaning to write a reply for a while now. We are listening here at LoG and the ideas and suggestions posted here have raised discussions internally - we really love when players take the time to dissect our systems.

I want to provide a little background to Rot - It's not meant to be fair, a Rot Victory isn't meant to be as easy to achieve as another victory type, it's designed to be punishing and hard - We designed it as a pathway of corruption, a dark path that you may sometimes be tempted down, tainted by or choose to embrace. Its an optional way to play Armello and a chance for you to take good heroes down dark and insidious paths. If you can claw out a Rot victory by doing that, succeeding against these disadvantages can be rewarding.

I do want to counter some concerns, we do play test and have been playing Armello for a long time, and though an item like Bane Blade may appear weak in game, we've proven through our own testing items like these, that they can be outright dangerous and powerful. Equally so poison is an incredibly dangerous, scary and debilitating effect - we leverage the fear of it more than the effect and when you land the effect successfully you essentially and most often doom the opponent, there is an art to poisoning other players.

We do re-look at the balance of the game , cards, heroes and npcs and you'll note with different updates we implement changes, we do this progressively. So Banes may be too soft at the moment and would then likely see a change in a future update :)

We really do like some of the ideas posted in this thread and I also want to add that many of the new features and adjustments that go into our updates, have been supported by community ideas and comments from threads just like this one.

Thanks again and I hope to see you in a game of Armello soon.


Kletian999

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Re: Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2017, 12:13:57 AM »
That's an interesting take, because it seems the community at large has written off the poison effect as nigh impossible to land an certainly I wouldn't fear attacking someone with poison gear unless I had no armor.  Even if struck in most cases it wouldn't outdamage a piercing die depending on life remaining and available healing.  I maintain that the lack of the special dice priority is the worst decision your team has made.

I used to like the Bane blade but the rise of shield and pierce gear has made it's luster dull.  When armor was scarce, you usually killed your opponents with it, now even GUARDS can survive the battles and you end up dying even if your own gear makes you unscratchable.  It's not much stronger mathematically than the Bastard sword.

dragoncrescent

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Re: Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2017, 07:01:50 AM »
You make a very valid point that Corrupted heroes don't really have a 'space'. I think it would be really cool if we made Swamps into that. Instead of taking a damage on this spot, maybe Corrupted Heroes gain a Shield, or regain an HP.

Considering that you can get Goblin's Game and Banes out of Dungeons, it feels like these could also be a candidate for 'evil' spaces. At current, if you are corrupted and a Bane spawns under you, they still knock you off the space. This is disadvantageous, as it wastes your AP. What if we changed the Dungeon so that a corrupted hero who gets a Bane on their Dungeon roll instead spawns nothing and just gains +1 Rot.

You would think this would make farming Rot too simple, but remember there is no guarantee you will get it. It still relies on the RNG, which can randomly warp you or give you situationally useless benefits.

KaijuCorgi

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Re: Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2017, 08:04:54 PM »
Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues

As we all know, Rot is terrible. The mechanics, the rewards, the treasures, the negatives, and the banes. They are all significantly weaker then any thing in-game. It's a terrible mechanic that is only in the game via lore reasons. To put it simply, this wouldn't fly in the game if it didn't revolve around it. Rot has many problems and I will go over most if not all of 'em. I want to make this post to show everyone, especially LoG that Rot needs to changes, especially after their disappointing update of 1.9.
Do we now? Not me. I love rot. I love the mechanics. I love that it's HARD to get rot, and hard to win with rot. It took me a long time to get a rot victory back when, which made it sweeter. Do I win less than if I went for the other win types? Probably! (Can I say that without sounding like an a-hole? Lol.) But it's FUN, and you might die a lot, and it depends a lot on RNG, but that's the game. RNG is a jerk. And frankly the recent update makes getting rot far easier, so in that sense people should be pleased.
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Banes

 Banes are the first thing many players see related to rot and they are horrible under powered compared to their Guard counterpart. They rarely survive the day after they spawn and are only an issue early game to low fight heroes like Amber and Ghor. This prevents players from reliably getting rot from banes and the heavy RNG based rolls banes have prevent players from reliably death warping on banes even while giving banes a 4 dice advantage and that also prevents them from gaining rot.

I wouldn't argue with banes getting a slight buff. That said, this used to annoy me more before I learned that getting rot by suiciding to banes is like, the worst way to get corrupted (except for the 4 rot double kill). I like to play Sana so trust me when I say I understand how frustrating it can be trying to die by bane. But I don't think anything about rot should be all that "reliable".
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Corruption

Corruption overall doesn't work. It's heavily RNG reliant, even more so then any other victory condition in Armello to date. The most reliable way to get corrupted is by the spell deck, but you need a minimum of 4 spirit for the most reliable rot victories and even then that's very iffy. By being corrupted you lose access to Stone circles which can heavily influence pathing and gets rid of the counter to dawn damage and on top of that, that chip damage stacks overtime making it real easy for anyone to kill a corrupted person after a day or two.
Rot is hard. I wouldn't change dawn damage or stone circles at all. My only concession (and this may have been changed at some point, I haven't seen it happen in a while?) is that quests should never be assigned to a stone circle. The nature of rot is you can't always control your rate or corruption, so suddenly being cut off from quests is not cool.
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When you get corrupted, you aren't even guaranteed to have an advantage over the king, in fact, you could be at a MAJOR disadvantage just because you don't overtake him, so the race never ends unlike it's counterpart ; Spirit Walkers, which always have an advantage against the king and only have one real negative, but actually have benefits unlike Corruption and being a Spirit Walker is easier to achieve due to quest and constant spawning.
Rot is hard. Getting enough rot to overtake the king is your primary goal. It's a feature, not a bug! Spirit Walker is generally an easier path, with a clearer way to victory, this is true.

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Cards

The cards that are related to rot are extremely weak in comparison to others in the same category for apparently no reason. Three examples are: Poisoned Dagger, Bane Blade, and Poppet.

Poisoned Dagger rarely has its ability proc'd because Pure players won't use it due to it costing rot and Rot Lords can only use 8 cards for the effect without touching rot gain, which they desperately need. Every other item is better then this card simply because they give something of benefit to the person wielding it, this card doesn't.

Bane Blade is an extremely punishing card with a good effect. This really hurts players for having it in the long run as constant fighting can cause them to die by the very item they equipped. This can be heavily exploited by other heroes to simply by pass them. Even without it's heavily punishing effect, it's still not very good, so why keep it equipped after the rot gain? You have no reason to.

Poppet is a rot card that cost rot, but Rot Lords can't use it. They pretty much kill anything with their rot bonus and rather have shields in place of Poppet. Pure players can use it, so that's plus for pure players, but as a Rot related treasure, it's bad for the playstyle its suppose to support.

Totally agree about Poisoned Dagger, I don't find it useful. Bane Blade and Poppet though, have to disagree. I think you're going in assuming that all treasures that give rot should be super useful to corrupt characters. I don't think that's the reasoning, though. The cards are powerful, and they're dark. They should require a little bit of your soul to equip. For someone trying to avoid rot, they have a difficult choice when they pull Poppet or Bane Blade. For a player going for rot, it's an easy boon. Maybe you determine the tool itself is useless and you immediately equip over it, but hey, free rot! Not all cards are useful to all characters, and just because something gives rot doesn't mean it should automatically be a friendly card to rot lords.

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High Risk ; No Reward

The way Rot is presented would seem like a "High Risk ; High Reward" type of playstyle. You undergo all these negatives and a heavy reliance on RNG and it would seem the game, in return would throw a bone your way to celebrate you going through the challenge, but the game doesn't. Rot does not have a single reward in-game and getting +1 health isn't a reward, it's padding ; something that could be good, but with the way it's treated isn't, and is simply there so it could be pointed at and called a reward by LoG.
You want to make Rot good or at least viable? Give players something to hold onto when corrupted, because right now they don't have anything to call their own unlike Spirit Walkers.

Quests

Right now, Rot quest are extremely weak reward wise and that's even if you can manage to get a rot quest at all simply due to how RNG heavy rot gain is. When you do eventually get a Rot quest in-game, if it's not a stat the person needs, most will skip it. Sure, some may go for the +2 rot out of desperation, but if that fails, then you are in a world of trouble due to having  a +1 in an area not needed/wanted and no +2 rot.
These quest have to actually reward the player with something unique other then +2 rot as they can't pick the +2 option before corruption.
Rot rewards do sometimes feel like an afterthought, and you make a good point about specific rot quests only appearing once you're corrupted (by which point it's often too little too late, or unnecessary). I have no idea what the numbers are, but it seems like rot-related quests (straight rot + rot items like Bane Blade) are offered less often than spirit stones. It would be nice for that to even out. And i'm curious how it would play to potentially/randomly offer the straight +2 rot reward from the start?

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The King and the Victory

Lets say you did everything right. You overtook the king, got good equips, and attacked him. At this point the fight can go two ways ; you either outright destroy the king or he outright destroys you. He can only do this because of Pride's Edge which turn your misses into dice for him which your bound to miss dice, people usually throw 7-12 on average due to you getting a massive chunk from having an advantage over the king.

If you lose then it goes to prestige leader as you killed the king ; no questions about it, OR you won. RNG was in your favor and you managed to kill the king without dying. So, what do you get from that? Tell me what you get from that.

Nothing. You went through Armello hell to get this "Rot Victory" and it's nothing special. Now answer me this, would you go for the "Rot Victory" if that was no longer a victory condition?

Let's say its now called Kingslayer, because that's basically what it is. Would you still go through all that trouble of getting corrupted, overtaking, and fighting a riskier fight for a "Kingslayer" victory condition with the only difference being a stack of dice? Odds are a person wouldn't. They would rather take the less riskier option and just go a normal Kingslayer with 0-1 rot. You have a higher chance of not dying and a higher chance of not missing due to burns covering most if not all the dice you entered the fight with and therefore a higher chance at winning.

Point is, no one would go for the "Rot Victory" if it wasn't called a "Rot Victory" and that shouldn't be the only reason to go for said victory.


You get the satisfaction of a job well done! Okay, I jest...but not really. The reason you go for rot and your reward for winning with rot is rot victories are really tough and if you get one you're a rockstar. You took full advantage of what RNG gave you, good and bad. Like any other win. But you had extra challenges to get there via rot, heaps of em! So you get extra cookies. Disgusting, rotten cookies made from the tears of your enemies. How is that not satisfying?

Point is, the game doesn't give you anything tangible and special for any kind of win. No one has to go for rot. And yet...they do. Or at least, I do!
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Solutions and Suggestions.
This second portion of the post is mainly to address each of these major problems one by one and give reasonable solutions for them that would make Corruption unique for better, not for worse.

Banes

Their main problem is King's Guards as they can't even fight them at night and live.  So nerf Guards.
When they were just buffed to not be useless? If anything, buff Banes, a little. Maybe.

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Corruption

Make it to where stone circles don't instantly kill someone on entrance if corrupted, make them take -2 damage with no healing, but if the corrupted being ends their turn in a stone circle or is pushed into one, they die instantly. This way they don't lose access to 1/10th of the board from a status change.

Corrupted people don't take damage from swamps and therefore reduces the huge amount of chip damage they already receive.

Make Corruption take effect at 4 rot instead of 5, so it isn't as RNG heavy and they can get access to rot quest sooner.  In addition to that, Banes should start at 3 rot, so corrupted players immediately have an advantage over Banes instead of it being a potential hit-or-miss while just starting to be corrupted.

Make their healing from killing scale with how much damage they do.
Killing = +1
Overkill = +2
Slaughter = +3
Annihilation = +4
Humiliation = +5
This would turn Banes into a reliable source of healing for them via dice chunks from rot advantage. This also applies to the King and Banes, but both of them rarely achieve anything above an overkill, so they would get +2 health at the very most.


I like some of these ideas! Because The Stranger exists, because of the awful mechanic of pushing you into a place where you will absolutely, no question about it, die, I like the idea of circles not (necessarily) outright killing you. The number of times I've died simply because of that dumb cat leading you into a circle (which imo is indefensible story-wise, but that's for my as-yet unpublished rant about The Stranger) far outnumbers the times I've been pushed into a circle via battle. If stone circles didn't kill you unless you were already too weak, well, at least you can try to plan around it. (And no, Darcy, having a hand full of Wall of Thorns is not an adequate answer to the inevitability of being pushed to your death by The Stranger  ;) )

Love the idea of swamps being our special place and taking no damage.

I like the idea of getting extra health for extra killing, but with a cap. If all goes well, with 6 or 7 body and several banes on the board you could quickly become nigh unkillable in the endgame. I'm intrigued but would personally cap it at +2.

Do not love the idea of lowering the rot threshold. It's easier than ever to get rot (if you don't believe me you're not playing Sargon enough). I think the balance is just right. And banes being hit or miss early on is part of the...uh, charm...of going for rot.
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Cards

This may sound crazy to LoG, but what about making Rot related cards have tier two effects? If the card has a natural rot symbol, it's stronger on corrupted people then on a pure person. Now I don't have an idea for what EVERY rot related card tier two effect should be, but the general feel is that they should have an extra effect or no negatives if played by a corrupted being, this would give people to have a legitimate reason to go rot.

Going rot would open up a new section of cards to use and they would be much stronger then a pure player using it.
And no, the cards don't give more rot and they would be purely positive effects that enhance the current ability of the card.

High Risk ; No Reward

Obviously would depend entirely on the individual cards, but this is an interesting idea.


I think there are some valid complaints and interesting ideas here. But rot has always been High Risk, Dubious Reward. And personally, I like it that way.

LunarFrost

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Re: Rot's Major Issues and Solutions to said Issues
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2017, 11:09:50 AM »
Do we now? Not me. I love rot. I love the mechanics. I love that it's HARD to get rot, and hard to win with rot. It took me a long time to get a rot victory back when, which made it sweeter. Do I win less than if I went for the other win types? Probably! (Can I say that without sounding like an a-hole? Lol.) But it's FUN, and you might die a lot, and it depends a lot on RNG, but that's the game. RNG is a jerk. And frankly the recent update makes getting rot far easier, so in that sense people should be pleased.

Yes, RNG is apart of the game, but this victory condition needs even more RNG for a person to win. Only one hero makes rot an easy victory condition and that is Twiss (will explain later), but every other hero has to deal with something when it comes to the rot victory condition that they didn't have to deal with when it comes to Kingslayer.

...But I don't think anything about rot should be all that "reliable".

 Considering lore wise characters accept the rot for amazing powers while in-game the actual mechanic itself is complete garbage and the fact it has nothing reliable only shows how bad it is as a victory condtion.

My only concession is that quests should never be assigned to a stone circle. The nature of rot is you can't always control your rate or corruption, so suddenly being cut off from quests is not cool. 

Plan around it, according to your logic, that's another layer of challenge that you have to think about when doing rot victories.

Rot is hard. Getting enough rot to overtake the king is your primary goal. It's a feature, not a bug! Spirit Walker is generally an easier path, with a clearer way to victory, this is true.

Getting enough rot to overtake isn't your goal, your goal is to kill the king while you overtake him in rot.  Never said anything about bugs.

Bane Blade and Poppet though, have to disagree. I think you're going in assuming that all treasures that give rot should be super useful to corrupt characters. I don't think that's the reasoning, though. The cards are powerful, and they're dark. They should require a little bit of your soul to equip. For someone trying to avoid rot, they have a difficult choice when they pull Poppet or Bane Blade. For a player going for rot, it's an easy boon. Maybe you determine the tool itself is useless and you immediately equip over it, but hey, free rot! Not all cards are useful to all characters, and just because something gives rot doesn't mean it should automatically be a friendly card to rot lords.

All treasures that do give rot should give the player something useful, but when corrupted, poppet does only a tiny bit of work when shields would be better and bane blade's negative is too huge to justify using it.

If someone is avoiding rot, they don't have a difficult choice to make, they simply ditch the two treasures because they don't want the negatives rot brings and rot players equipping those two treasures don't get "boons". Bane Blade does massive chip damage to it's wielder on top of whatever swamp and dawn damage that has built up over the course of someone's life and poppet does nothing to help the rotlords achieve their victory condition, so it's pretty bad.

And while I understand that not all cards are useful to all characters, rot cards should be amazing for rot lords. They took the risk of going rot and should be rewarded with it, but currently there is no reward.

You get the satisfaction of a job well done! Okay, I jest...but not really. The reason you go for rot and your reward for winning with rot is rot victories are really tough and if you get one you're a rockstar. You took full advantage of what RNG gave you, good and bad. Like any other win. But you had extra challenges to get there via rot, heaps of em! So you get extra cookies. Disgusting, rotten cookies made from the tears of your enemies. How is that not satisfying?

Rot Victories are tough, but unlike kingslayer, it's unfair. You don't take advantage of any RNG you see, you use whatever RNG you get thrown towards you, you don't have the option to pick and choose what RNG comes your way with a Rot Victory.
Sure, you have 1 challenge, a challenge of patience. Do you keep going for rot in hopes that you'll pull what you need or do you ditch it while you still can? More often then not I go forward and usually end up fighting the king with less rot or equal to what he has.
And no, you don't get extra cookies. You get the same amount of cookies everyone else got.
How is all this not satisfying? After 760 hours of playing Armello and getting a rot victory with every character at least once (Not Ghor, hate the character)The satisfaction of winning isn't there any more. It doesn't exist. You praise yourself for getting that hard earned victory until you realize that rot victories require a massive amount of luck to pull off.

When they were just buffed to not be useless? If anything, buff Banes, a little. Maybe.
Guards got a massive damage buff and can now wall you in the early-mid game phase depending on your hero. That's why I asked for them to get nerfed.


I like the idea of getting extra health for extra killing, but with a cap. If all goes well, with 6 or 7 body and several banes on the board you could quickly become nigh unkillable in the endgame. I'm intrigued but would personally cap it at +2.
Banes don't live on the board long enough for you to take advantage of that very specific situation. They usually die to Guards at morning and if they don't, they tend to be far apart from the other banes due to them going after settlements.

Do not love the idea of lowering the rot threshold. It's easier than ever to get rot (if you don't believe me you're not playing Sargon enough). I think the balance is just right. And banes being hit or miss early on is part of the...uh, charm...of going for rot. 

It's not easier then ever to get rot. It got a tiny bit easier with 3 cards someone could realistically play and 1 card that only casters will be able to play, that doesn't help as much as you think it does and funny thing is, I don't play Rot Sargon. He's not an amazing character to go rot for a number of reasons.

Poor stats for rot, low survival rate outside of combat, and if you're running evade, you're 100% reliant on HRW or Strategist to attack the king, which you might not even get. Not to mention you get a destroyed if a guard or another hero is in your way.

The hero that's amazing for rot is Twiss. Amethyst allows her to cycle cards faster and has near infinite magic due to the ring. Not to mention she has amazing strats for what she is AND her king fight after she overtakes is exactly like a king fight with using a high fight character which means she can mitigate the misses with burns. If you're not using Twiss, then you're playing intentional rot games wrong.

But rot has always been High Risk, Dubious Reward. And personally, I like it that way.
Rot has no reward at all. It's High Risk ; No Reward.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.