Author Topic: Amber Hero Power Suggestion.  (Read 971 times)

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LunarFrost

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Amber Hero Power Suggestion.
« on: August 28, 2017, 08:04:53 AM »
So, I was brainstorming about Armello stuff yesterday, and I had an idea for Amber's hero ability.

Her current hero ability is really just...bad. It's the only hero power in the game that has the potential of not being proc'd even if you really tried.

So, I just wanted to give her a simple, but strong ability.

Amber's new hero power would allow her to auto succeed 2 quest of her choice.

She would start the game with 2 "quest tokens". When she gets to one of her quest, she gets a 3rd option to pick alongside the safe and risky quest choices. If she picks the 3rd option, she spends a token and gets the quest reward.


Thoughts?

I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

Kletian999

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Re: Amber Hero Power Suggestion.
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2017, 12:03:37 PM »
Well, there's already a "3rd option" mechanic to quests, but it rewards a card draw rather than the fancy reward.

LoG has stated they don't want any power to be "activated" by custom UI elements.   So representing consumable tokens and "choosing" when it activates breaks the rule.  The closest thing you could get to implementing would be auto-protection from your first failed quest(s).


LunarFrost

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Re: Amber Hero Power Suggestion.
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2017, 01:34:17 PM »
Well, there's already a "3rd option" mechanic to quests, but it rewards a card draw rather than the fancy reward.

LoG has stated they don't want any power to be "activated" by custom UI elements.   So representing consumable tokens and "choosing" when it activates breaks the rule.  The closest thing you could get to implementing would be auto-protection from your first failed quest(s).

I know there is a "3rd option" mechanic for quests, this would take priority. And this isn't "custom UI", this works perfectly fine under current UI.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

Teii

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Re: Amber Hero Power Suggestion.
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2017, 05:54:03 AM »
I think the only way to balance this type of power would be to nerf all the really good treasures and followers or make the guaranteed 3rd option not give Amber the stat increase or have some other large cost.  The cost would have to be something you literally have to pay by the way.  It can't be anything like current quest penalties where you can roll a magic, gold or prestige loss while you have none.  Things like lionheart breastplate or apprentice are only remotely balanced because they rarely show up and everybody more or less has the same chance to get them.  Using your token on blacksmith, apprentice, lionheart, silver lance or helm of heroes would just be a no-brainer. 

A power like this probably just shouldn't exist though.  It's the kind of power that's only fun for the person using it and only if they enjoy being handed the strongest items on a silver platter.  It would be no fun to see Amber get the best items for the 3rd game in a row for no cost.  The excitement of actually getting the good cards is lost when you know for certain that you'll get them.

LunarFrost

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Re: Amber Hero Power Suggestion.
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 10:40:03 AM »
I think the only way to balance this type of power would be to nerf all the really good treasures and followers or make the guaranteed 3rd option not give Amber the stat increase or have some other large cost.  The cost would have to be something you literally have to pay by the way.  It can't be anything like current quest penalties where you can roll a magic, gold or prestige loss while you have none.  Things like lionheart breastplate or apprentice are only remotely balanced because they rarely show up and everybody more or less has the same chance to get them.  Using your token on blacksmith, apprentice, lionheart, silver lance or helm of heroes would just be a no-brainer.

This power is already balanced, let me tell you why.
1. This power is still RNG reliant. It's entirely up to RNG what rewards you get for 2/3 of your quests on each selection
2. At the end of the day, these are still cards. They can be Stolen. Discarded. Removed. They aren't permanent, unlike every other hero power.

And while yes, it would be a no brainer to use it on top tier items, most of the time you won't be able to pick anything "top tier" as those are only 5 out of 32 other cards (15.625%). So no, Amber wouldn't need any penalty for using this option as it's already balanced.

A power like this probably just shouldn't exist though.  It's the kind of power that's only fun for the person using it and only if they enjoy being handed the strongest items on a silver platter.  It would be no fun to see Amber get the best items for the 3rd game in a row for no cost.  The excitement of actually getting the good cards is lost when you know for certain that you'll get them.

"It's the kind of power that's only fun for the person using it..."

Tei, last time I checked, a hero power shouldn't be fun for anyone else. It's meant to help YOU and you alone, not anyone else.

"...and only if they enjoy being handed the strongest items on a silver platter."

I would enjoy and others too. I love it when I walk on a dungeon and it just pops out a treasure/follower at me for no reason other then luck.

 Also, you wouldn't be given the strongest items on a silver platter as you only have a 16% to get one in your opening quest, 16-18% on your 2nd, 19-21% on your 3rd, and 22-25% on your 4th. Also, seeing an Amber get the best items in the game for 3 games in a row is very low. Again, low statistics, and getting the "excitement" isn't actually lost as you would put it. You would still get excited if you see the card and go for them, but it's a different type of excitement.

You wouldn't hold your breath anymore, but instead your excited to get to your destination.
Instead of winning the lottery, you're on your way to get the prize you won from said lottery. Again, it's not that the excitement is lost, it's just different.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

dragoncrescent

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Re: Amber Hero Power Suggestion.
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2017, 01:59:31 PM »
Interesting idea, but perhaps a bit tricky to implement. She's a 'lucky rabbit' - maybe her power could be buffed to benefit her not only in dungeons, but also grant a +10% to all of her quest chances instead.

air6ornepig

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Re: Amber Hero Power Suggestion.
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2017, 05:42:51 PM »
I don't think you quite understand the ramifications of that ability. What you're essentially proposing is a "Choose your guaranteed reward" ability. That kind of power is would be unreal in this game. Not only could it be used to abuse quest rewards for items and party (which always offer something good, even if it's not always the best), but you could abuse it for quick spirit stone victories. Part of the struggle in Armello is not knowing what happens next, and making decisions to guard against failure while also pushing forward and working with what little you get. Guaranteed quest rewards break that.

Something like "+10% chance of winning dangerous option" would be more fair and balanced, but it doesn't fit her "treasure hunter" theme. It would better fit another character, maybe a new character altogether.
I'm thinking more of an "adventurer hero" type. Maybe even one that jokes on the 'comic hero' trope, and gets the bonus because of his/her questing experience. Or a more humble "bartender hero" who had a background in supplying quest rumours, so his/her bonus is justified lore-wise by having extra information on rumours.

Amber's ability is fine as it fits how she's meant to be played; with frequent dungeon detours. Don't underestimate having extra gold or magic, and the odd treasure/party member.

Teii

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Re: Amber Hero Power Suggestion.
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2017, 06:17:40 AM »
This power is already balanced, let me tell you why.
1. This power is still RNG reliant. It's entirely up to RNG what rewards you get for 2/3 of your quests on each selection
2. At the end of the day, these are still cards. They can be Stolen. Discarded. Removed. They aren't permanent, unlike every other hero power.

And while yes, it would be a no brainer to use it on top tier items, most of the time you won't be able to pick anything "top tier" as those are only 5 out of 32 other cards (15.625%). So no, Amber wouldn't need any penalty for using this option as it's already balanced.


"It's the kind of power that's only fun for the person using it..."

Tei, last time I checked, a hero power shouldn't be fun for anyone else. It's meant to help YOU and you alone, not anyone else.

"...and only if they enjoy being handed the strongest items on a silver platter."

I would enjoy and others too. I love it when I walk on a dungeon and it just pops out a treasure/follower at me for no reason other then luck.

 Also, you wouldn't be given the strongest items on a silver platter as you only have a 16% to get one in your opening quest, 16-18% on your 2nd, 19-21% on your 3rd, and 22-25% on your 4th. Also, seeing an Amber get the best items in the game for 3 games in a row is very low. Again, low statistics, and getting the "excitement" isn't actually lost as you would put it. You would still get excited if you see the card and go for them, but it's a different type of excitement.

Even though you accounted for the follower and treasure pool getting trimmed down, your percentages are wrong when we're talking about more than the most op followers and treasures with no drawbacks.  Even though I only named 5, there are a lot more that I don't think should be 100% attainable every time you see it as a quest reward.  The percent chance of a good treasure or follower being a quest reward depends on what that player considers good.  Any percentage you calculate is effectively worthless because it's really just going to be based on an arbitrary definition of what's good.  I also just disagree that 16-25% is low.  Even a 1 in 6 chance is too high when we're talking cards that are basically intentionally overpowered because of their rarity.

How fun or obnoxious a power feels is something I hope LoG thinks about.  This is a 4 player game, and 3 players have to deal with a particular hero's power in a match while only 1 benefits from it.  Powerful abilities with no or very limited counters are likely going to be a net loss in overall game enjoyment.  Of course, powers are only meant to help that one hero.  That doesn't mean we should be designing more that offer absolutely no interactions or choices to the other 3 players while potentially carrying the 4th through the game.

Brun's power can be 'fun' to play against because you have actual options to deal with it besides spamming the trickery deck and hoping you get lucky.  You can fight him between fight stacking if you'd rather deal with him twice at moderate strength instead of once at very high.  You can avoid him until the buff wears off.  You can stand so another creature is between you.  On top of that, you can still get lucky by drawing cards like saboteur or he could roll a bane before he fights you.  Things that happen on the board and decisions that you make can affect an enemy Brun's Scarcasting.  The same can't be said for your suggestion.



Part of the struggle in Armello is not knowing what happens next, and making decisions to guard against failure while also pushing forward and working with what little you get. Guaranteed quest rewards break that.

I also 100% agree with this statement. 

LunarFrost

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Re: Amber Hero Power Suggestion.
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2017, 06:27:22 AM »
Interesting idea, but perhaps a bit tricky to implement. She's a 'lucky rabbit' - maybe her power could be buffed to benefit her not only in dungeons, but also grant a +10% to all of her quest chances instead.

A power that is entirely RNG reliant and has no chance of helping her at all. No.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

LunarFrost

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Re: Amber Hero Power Suggestion.
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2017, 06:43:11 AM »
I don't think you quite understand the ramifications of that ability. What you're essentially proposing is a "Choose your guaranteed reward" ability. That kind of power is would be unreal in this game. Not only could it be used to abuse quest rewards for items and party (which always offer something good, even if it's not always the best), but you could abuse it for quick spirit stone victories. Part of the struggle in Armello is not knowing what happens next, and making decisions to guard against failure while also pushing forward and working with what little you get. Guaranteed quest rewards break that.

I know the ramifications quite well, that is why I'm suggesting the ability and no, the power wouldn't be "unreal". When you say it "could be used to abuse quest rewards" doesn't make much since. The power is guaranteeing quest rewards. Also, Bane's Claw, Wyld's Talisman, Mirror Cape and Royal Pardaon say hi in regards of "something good".

Also, the struggle in Armello isn't about not knowing what happens next, but more so dealing with the massive amount RNG the game throws at you. The moments where you have little to no control and trying to deal with that which can be really frustrating. Guaranteed quest don't break that, they help you a tiny bit with RNG, but nothing extreme.

Something like "+10% chance of winning dangerous option" would be more fair and balanced.

+10% chance would be a terrible ability for anyone. It's entirely RNG reliant which is never good and the only hero that has to deal with a 100% RNG hero power right now is Amber.

Amber's ability is fine as it fits how she's meant to be played; with frequent dungeon detours. Don't underestimate having extra gold or magic, and the odd treasure/party member.

Amber's ability isn't "fine as it is." It's 100% RNG relaint. It's the only ability in the game that has the chance of never being proc'd. Elyssia is literally a better Amber in every way shape and form simply because of 1 thing ; she actually has a hero power.
And Amber's power doesn't give her extra gold or magic, that's still entirely RNG on those dungeon rolls and I've gotten more treasures/followers from dungeons as Amber simply from rolling the dungeon without her ability proc'ing.
Her ability doesn't do anything for her...at all. You have a very slight chance of getting something from her hero power...but it's not worth it especially if it can go multiple games without being proc'd.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

Kletian999

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Re: Amber Hero Power Suggestion.
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2017, 09:27:09 AM »
People would just not chose the risky path if the treasure/follower was weak.  People do that without a "I win the challenge" power waiting to burn.

I've played plenty of Scarlet games with no Power proc.   If you don't draw Incite Revolt, or a Bane mover you might never reach a terrorized town before a guard or other hero saves it.  (an interesting idea comes to mind I'll discuss below)

I've played Barnaby games where the item deck hates me and there's nothing I want to switch out and DEFINITELY wish I could empty my hand.

Amber's power draws on a completely different outlook table in dungeons than regular players.  So it's Proccing every time even if you can't appreciate or see it.

It's Extremely difficult to remove treasures and followers.   The cards that make it possible can easily "miss" to hit regular gear or weak followers if the Amber gets multiple.

In Regards to the UI, you are ignoring realities of Programming.  The Secret 3rd option has a display card that only appears in certain circumstances, and a text story behind it.  The hypothetical "chose when to not fail" would need to be a potential 4th card in case the other 3 already trigger, and cannot use the narrative based on the special treasures. 
If you made it so that the first Risky reward you accept is always 100%, that could fit the UI.


Idea re: Scarlet and Amber.  Scarlet's power is "guarantee a follower after an uncommon event", Amber's power is "increase chance of Treasure or Follower (not spirit stones) after a common event".  What if instead their powers were "Receive a Follower every 4th time you capture (instead of rescue) a town" and "Receive a Treasure every 6 times you enter a dungeon".  The numbers would need some ironing out, but the raw concept of being guaranteed progress instead of getting droughts and windfalls; and the symmetry is pleasing.

dragoncrescent

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Re: Amber Hero Power Suggestion.
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2017, 12:16:46 PM »
A power that is entirely RNG reliant and has no chance of helping her at all. No.

As much as I'd like to mitigate the RNG too, you have to come to terms with the fact that Armello is not a game you can ever 100% control. Amber's theme is entirely based around being a charismatic adventure like Indiana Jones or Lara Croft. I feel like the +10 is a subtle and versatile addition to her current power that further improves her chances of coming across some handy relic (artifact or Spirit Stone).

Also, agreeing with Kletian. Darcy explained once over the stream the personnel costs of implementing any new card or ability is kind of steam. The team has also expressed a disfavor of unique UI elements, Right now, I think only Sargon has one...
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 12:20:16 PM by dragoncrescent »

dani

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Re: Amber Hero Power Suggestion.
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2017, 06:10:38 AM »
I do agree Amber's power feels very underwhelming. If she's supposed to be a master of the dungeons, how about adding a non-RNG twist to some outcomes, something like (just throwing some ideas out there):

  • Bane: Amber decides where it will move (1 tile from Dungeon), rather than always attacking her (still an option, if you want to fight it). Amber will still retreat from Dungeon as it is now.
  • Portal: Amber decides to which Dungeon it will bring her (possibly too strong though)
  • Gold/Magic: Gives +X of the resource, Amber is good at finding stuff!

Some more options:
- Amber gains stealth on a Dungeon at night.
- Amber auto-matches X symbols on Dungeon Perils
- Amber gains +X <something> while on a Dungeon (Swords / Shields, perhaps even Spirit or Wits, take your pick).
- Amber has a passive Torch (not taking an item slot)
- Amber can play any Peril to Dungeons (e.g., a Peril that would only be playable to Swamp or whatever, she can play to Dungeons too).

There are so many non-RNG options to consider when giving her a power, I'd wish that would be done. There's already plenty of RNG in this game, which I understand to an extent but not when it's so easily avoidable :)

@Kletian999 I also like your idea of guaranteeing a treasure every Nth time you enter a Dungeon.