Author Topic: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance  (Read 2798 times)

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Teii

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2017, 10:27:44 PM »

As i said i think his power IS awesome. All you did there was list reasons to pretty much keep it as is, he is a good character, and i love his risk to reward playstyle as far as fights are concerned. To gain advantage in fights he risks handing out free prestige and gold to other players,

In what sense does Sylas give other players free prestige and money?  To claim the bounty, you need to either play a card or fight Sylas.  Fighting a Sylas with a fugitive bounty or higher is nearly guaranteed damage.  Killing Sylas with a spell gives the exact same rewards as any other hero.  His high body means you will on average need more resources to kill him than most of the cast.  Also, another random player gaining money and prestige isn't necessarily relevant.  Prestige only matters when it allows the prestige leader to change.  Sylas himself likely doesn't even care about prestige anyway because his specialty is killing the king, and he frequently kills guards.  Money is only as good as the cards it fuels.   Spell heavy heroes and build, the ones who need money the least, are also more likely to collect a bounty than ones that focus on items or trickery.  The risks and costs for Sylas are a few "maybes" that can happen to any other hero just as easily or be insignificant.  Meanwhile, the advantages Sylas has are very unique and consistent.  You're taking the same risks any other hero takes for unique and powerful advantages.  Comparatively, he is a low risk, high reward hero.


TenNoOkami

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2017, 06:51:03 AM »
In what sense does Sylas give other players free prestige and money?  To claim the bounty, you need to either play a card or fight Sylas.  Fighting a Sylas with a fugitive bounty or higher is nearly guaranteed damage.  Killing Sylas with a spell gives the exact same rewards as any other hero.  His high body means you will on average need more resources to kill him than most of the cast.  Also, another random player gaining money and prestige isn't necessarily relevant.  Prestige only matters when it allows the prestige leader to change.  Sylas himself likely doesn't even care about prestige anyway because his specialty is killing the king, and he frequently kills guards.  Money is only as good as the cards it fuels.   Spell heavy heroes and build, the ones who need money the least, are also more likely to collect a bounty than ones that focus on items or trickery.  The risks and costs for Sylas are a few "maybes" that can happen to any other hero just as easily or be insignificant.  Meanwhile, the advantages Sylas has are very unique and consistent.  You're taking the same risks any other hero takes for unique and powerful advantages.  Comparatively, he is a low risk, high reward hero.
Well...Sylas is the ONLY character who will actively do things like go out of their way to kill a guard, attempt an early breach into the palace(even counting on failure) and play the bounty trick card to themselves. i have never done any of those things with the specific objective of bestowing a bounty upon myself as any other character, nor did i ever see anyone else doing that, but as Sylas, players actively try to get the bounty and remain with it as long as possible, so yes...he is handing out free prestige and gold for bringing upon himself something all other characters try to never get if they can avoid it. As exemple, when i play with anyone but sylas, i will do my best to never have a bounty on me and WILL remove bounty using the prorogation card and even killing myself on porpouse before someone else does it. Having a bounty is a disadvantage, Sylas is the only character who actively and porpousedly gets bounties on himself, that is what makes him a 'prestige and gold phylantropist' where as other characters aren't, even when a bounty is indeed a general mechanic that affects everyone equaly. A bounty is a punishment for a bad play, an obstacle of being caught between a rock and a hard place, a negative consequence of a daring play or a sentence dealt to you by other players, Sylas is the only character that embraces this punishment, seeks it actively and grows from it. This is the key difference...Sylas seeks to have a bounty where as everyone else avoids it like the handicap it is.
This is indeed a RISKY strategy to go around putting bounty on yourself on porpouse. And i hope this much explanation is enough cause i might start to go in circles if i have to stress any more how a bounty is a problem that is usually avoided at all costs but out of all one character likes to go around having a bounties all the time.

Now as to how this plays big against Sylas...i'm surprized you would understimate prestige to call any gain in prestige to other players 'irelevant'.
Prestige is a game winning stat, it can quite literally win you the game by just having a lot of it. Idealy you would want to mitigate enemy prestige gain as much as possible and Sylas goes around delivering large prestige gains to others like an ice cream truck selling free frozen delights: in an armello game...you WILL get knocked out, probably more then once...or ten times depending on how much you're focus fired at. Sure he has a high body stat but damages occour here and there regardless of player intervention(marshes, random traps, quest failures, bane attacks, royal guard attacks, kings orders, rot...) , and bounties get larger as time goes...by the time his bounty has gotten big and fat enough to give him max benefits of his skill, someone will pounce as soon as his hp drops enough, you put a bounty on yourself, you make yourself a target to every single player, i have no problems in trading with a Sylas in a fight if i have no bounty, if i know i can kill him even if i die, i attack, as it is an advantageous trade, many instances in the game actually killing yourself is a solid sometimes game winning move, this is one such move: die in combat along with a traitor-level bounty hero being clean of a bounty yourself, these 3 swords he gets from the traitor bounty are FAR from a garantee he'll survive the fight himself...actually they're not even garantee he'll damage you, ridiculous dice rolls happen more often then one could assume...regardless...if you kill him you nullify his skills setting bounty and thus extra auto swords back to zero, it will take time for him to build that up again, rince and repeat. Like i said...Prestige is a game winning stat and every point counts, be it to become the new leader of prestige, get closer to the current one to eventually overtake them or enlarge the gap between you or the others.
Whenever i play against a Sylas i milk them for prestige, pretty solid strategy.

The only problem i currently have with Sylas is the fact some Sylas players try to breach into the palace with very subpar equipment and like two, sometimes even just one, quest completed only, too early, and since they get 3 swords against the king automaticly this is actually a viable winning strategy, which is the only broken thing (the automatic traitor bounty as soon as an attack to the king is done already counting to his auto swords on the very turn he went for it), however, on a player to player mid-game state...he is fair, in my opinion, i have NO problems whatsoever in facing a Sylas midgame if its not for the early turn 3 attack on the King. The exchange of relations of a Sylas to other heros midgame is fair(exchanging combat strength for handing out large amounts of game-winning resources to others), just the attack on the King(and the subsequent automatic traitor level bounty which gives him the maximum bonuses in that same turn) is the problem.

Like i said, i am not downplaying his power as i do think he is strong...but its a 'cool/manageable' kind of strong, not a 'gamebreaking' kind of strong. So what i'm doing is pointing out how i think while he is strong, some minor tweaking to how bounties on the palace and the king are delivered is all he needs, not a smash from the nerf hammer.

Sorry for lenghty post i just want to make some points as clear as possible.

Teii

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2017, 01:43:58 PM »
The idea that no other hero seeks out a bounty is false because that is a matter of playstyle and the risks people are willing to take.  I actively seek out guards on any combat or well equipped hero that isn't Sana.  Even with the guards' recent buff, they're still a decent source of card cycling.  Having a bounty can be more of an advantage than a disadvantage just for the purpose of cycling cards.  Bounties don't help other players actually kill unless the guards deal relevant damage.  Even when the damage occurs, that doesn't mean the other players draw certain cards, have the resources to use them or don't need to use them for something other than killing you.  I don't find myself constantly being killed with a bounty on River, so the risk for a hero with more body, little risk of being blocked by a guard and a power that discourages people from attacking is even less.   The bounty hero, Sylas, shouldn't be balanced around people that fear bounties anymore than Brun should be balanced around people that don't draw spells.

On top of that, any hero can gain a bounty just from a guard standing in the way, anybody playing the bounty card or any of the bounty declarations.  It really doesn't matter whether you sought out the bounty or not once you have it.  If we ignore the resource cost of killing high body heroes and risk of fighting someone with a passive bastard sword and war hammer, then every hero can and will hand out free prestige and money.

The point I tried to make about prestige from the bounty is that it is more likely to be irrelevant than the advantage Sylas gains.  Every point can matter, but that doesn't mean it will.  Prestige is the most binary stat in the game.  You either have the most or it serves almost no purpose.  It can win you the game, but that only happens when every players fails to win through other means.  Those two things mean the impact of prestige will always be inconsistent, but locked-in swords could not be more consistent.  The idea with Sylas is clearly to kill the king.  If the game comes down to prestige, the Sylas likely loses regardless because he either never attacked or his attack failed.  The prestige one player gains from the bounty is more of an issue for the other 2 players than Sylas himself.  Not to mention, that the prestige lead is frequently up for grabs by late game because more people get bounties, more declarations make the leader lose prestige and anyone with high prestige could lose it all attacking.