Author Topic: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance  (Read 3961 times)

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Teii

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2017, 09:30:39 PM »
Even +2 swords isn't unreasonable as long as you have some reliable shielding from gear and burns (god forbid you take resist too, it's not a bandit clan specific item, unlike the rabbit ring that's 2 free trusty shields on a common tile type).

Sylas is a 3 wit hero to start before buffs.  If he choses to start with 4 wits, he's only a 4 fight character, and if he has Resist, then neither of those stats go higher before quests. 

There isn't a single card or effect in the entire game that provides 2 swords on offense and defense without any in-combat penalty except for Sylas' power.  Every single non-treasure item that provides 2 locked-in symbols does so only under certain combat conditions, at the cost of a die or at the cost of rot.  It seems unreasonable to me that only one particular hero can obtain something that seems to be deemed too strong in general.  Also, shields don't really counter Sylas' power.  A fugitive bounty still lets him negate a battle armour or tower shield.  Sylas gets a significant equipment advantage over every hero because he attacked a guard once 2 turns ago.  Even if you have 4 auto-shields (1 from resist + the standard 3 from items), a fugitive Sylas knocks you down to a measly 2 before we even talk about whether he has any offensive gear.

A hero's card drawing isn't just about wits.  Resources to play cards also allows you to draw more.  A Sylas with his base wits of 3 is not automatically worse at drawing cards than Zosha or River because he has very good resource gaining rings and more starting gold.  Whenever amethyst, topaz or serendibite allow Sylas to use a card he otherwise wouldn't have been able to, that ring also allows him to draw an additional card next turn.  The only clans with wits stats that you can pretty much take at face value when talking about card drawing are wolves and rats because they have the weakest and least used resource rings.


Sniktch

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2017, 10:28:12 PM »
Sylas isn't, BY AND OF HIMSELF, broken.  It's the COMBO of power plus statline plus gold start plus synergistic rings plus synergistic amulets that push things into pitchfork territory.  I recall that when the Bandits were still backer-only and Sylas's power was +1 sword per killed guard, he was considered a dead-tie with Horace for worst power.  The reason the change has people raging is threefold:

1: Swords SUCK in Armello.  Since you have to surrender defense or utility to get them, they're the weakest tools in the game.  So folks suddenly getting rolled by someone who CAN swing enough of them without being paper-thin jolts their worldview - "Isn't someone with 3 swords SUPPOSED to be an easy kill????"  Shield-sword balance has been broken since day 1, and it's just now boiling over because Sylas is pointing the problem out and because the item deck has started to reach Trickery deck levels of glutted with things people don't look for.

2: He gets it back instantly vs. the King.  Sylas during backer-only days was considered complete garbage - because it didn't come right back on attacking the King.  Yes, you COULD run right back up to 3 cruising speed - IF there was one more dawn left in the game.  Most of the time, when it matters, there isn't, and a Sylas WITHOUT those extra swords is...Mercurio with less Wits.  Not exactly threatening.  So people see him get crushed to weak by Reprieve and cheer...and then he attacks the King and their reaction is "But I crippled him!  He can't DO THAT!" and cue the forum rage.

3: He, like River and Thane, can be used to rush the game at a truly ugly speed.  Combine Watch amulet with Leather Armor and one or two burns or Resist amulet plus two or three burns and you've got the palace cracked on turn 2 or 3.  Then throw yourself at the king and burn every offense you have - you're gonna die, but you're also going to knock off upwards of 6 turns if you don't just end the game outright.  So people see Sylas, and they think "*CENSORED* it, I want a GAME not a speed course!" and cue the forum rage.

2 of these three problems would be solved by applying Bounty levels AFTER the triggering event across the board - there is ONE corner-case I can think of where this could have a detrimental effect on a player, and that's someone plays Armistice, the other party attacks them, and via miracle-mile rolling, the attacker takes a dirtnap.  Applying Bounty levels after the attack would deprive the attacked player of 1 Prestige and 2 Gold, and the attacker would wake up in Clan Grounds with a Bounty.  All other instances of intra-player combat with bounties involved already function this way as far as I recall - attacking someone on a Dungeon/Stone Circle when Royal Eyes Only is in effect and attacking someone who's in the Palace all apply the Bounty AFTER the attack is resolved, unless I'm mistaken - because you don't enter the hex in question UNLESS you kill or push your opponent, so being slain by your intended victim already doesn't award them the bounty.

Kletian999

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2017, 10:46:22 PM »
I'm confident the code that makes "auto traitor" when attacking the King is distinct from other bounty triggers and could be altered independent of the rest of the systems.

Sniktch

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2017, 08:34:53 PM »
It could be so, Kletian - but A: I never assume code is easy, and B: standardizing triggers, timing, and conditionals is good design, which is why River got fixed to have her arrow count as an attack for all purposes.

LassBisharp

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Found a way to balance Horace + Bonus things that would be nice to have
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2017, 01:57:18 PM »
Hey everyone, I came here because I, like some of you, am a really big fan of Horace, and the fact that he's the only character that's Hero Power can be negated makes him severely under-powered when playing the game. Even one bounty card can screw a Horace over. Now,  I'm not saying to just make Horace's passive un-negateable, because that would be unbalanced on it's own, and as much as I'd like to see Horace be overpowered, I like to play games fairly. So my idea was that Horace could get an instant reprieve upon receiving a bounty, not the actual card, but it would function like Horace played reprieve after getting a bounty, losing 1 prestige, and removing his bounty, sort of like how as a spirit walker you can no longer gain rot and when you do, you just get dealt damage dependent on how much rot you gained.  I(and my friend Silvuh) feel that this would be the perfect way to give Horace that needed buff he deserves without making him completely overpowered.  Of course, this would not work if you were in palace as that would still be unbalanced and it wouldn't make sense that their guards wouldn't defend their king.(despite how ugly he is)

Lastly, I'd like to talk about some bonus stuff involving the rings that the bandits use. This is not at all necessary to the game, but many of the rings of the game don't feel directed at many of the other bandits. Celestite is more of a ring that's generally for everyone, Pink topaz isn't generally needed by any bandit, although it does help out scarlet a little most scarlet players don't use pink topaz. From what I've seen, Black Opal doesn't really benefit all too much, although I've never used the ring myself, except a few times when I was farming games for Celestite. Lastly there is Amythyst which gives you one magic for every spell card used, which doesn't seem to benefit the bandits at all because they all have low spirit, it just barely works good enough on scarlet to actually be better than celestite, or pink topaz. Then there's Serendibite, which I prefer to call "The Sylas Ring" as all it seems to do is benefit Sylas, and might be the only reason he is actually viable. It gives one prestige and gold for killing a guard, but the other characters don't seem to benefit from this at all, especially Horace, who has absolutely no reason to kill a guard unless someone put a bounty on him. My solution to this(sorry for sounding kinda silly) would be to make new rings that would actually benefit the other bandits, especially Horace, with the only viable ring he can use being Celestite. I know this sounds kinda silly and is the reason why I added it in as a bonus because it's not a very good option. I just think it'd be fair if the other characters had a ring that would actually benefit them.
Thank you for reading!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 03:58:32 PM by LassBisharp »

LunarFrost

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2017, 03:26:21 PM »
You're assuming 'good shield equips' repeatedly.  I've gone MANY games without getting anything beyond a single Trusty or Feathered Helm.  Don't snarl about others having to rely on RNG for their scenarios when you're doing the exact same thing.

I only said good shield equips once...during guard fights.
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Kletian999

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2017, 02:20:22 AM »
The Bandit clan rings are "stolen" from the other clans, with the 5th being original to keep the clan balance and make prestige non-impossible for Sylas. 

Amethyst, Pink Topaz, and Celestite are some of the best rings in the game aiding many playstyles on nearly all the bandits.  Amethyst is more dependant on Wits than spirit which is why its awesome for Twiss and can help the others use magic without bothing to raise spirit.  It's true that the Rat ring is terrible, partly because the Bandit rat ring was chosen before Exploding Sword and Always evade existed.

LassBisharp

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2017, 03:02:41 AM »
That's why I added it in as a bonus as I know the stolen rings aren't completely terrible with the rest of the bandits, I just wanted to point out that there wasn't really a good ring that benefited Horace although  Amethyst can benefit both Scarlet and Twiss a decent amount, but that's not useful to Horace because of his low spirit stat, the only really viable option of Horace is Celestite which kinda makes sense as he's supposed to save time by just trading places with a guard and it really saves ap if a guard's on a mountain, but the other bandits can benefit from that ring just fine.  Well, except Sylas, he doesn't really have a reason to use any ring other than Serendibite

LunarFrost

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2017, 01:39:34 PM »
That's why I added it in as a bonus as I know the stolen rings aren't completely terrible with the rest of the bandits, I just wanted to point out that there wasn't really a good ring that benefited Horace although  Amethyst can benefit both Scarlet and Twiss a decent amount, but that's not useful to Horace because of his low spirit stat, the only really viable option of Horace is Celestite which kinda makes sense as he's supposed to save time by just trading places with a guard and it really saves ap if a guard's on a mountain, but the other bandits can benefit from that ring just fine.  Well, except Sylas, he doesn't really have a reason to use any ring other than Serendibite

Mobility & Defense. Celestite.
Money. Topaz
Prestige. Serendibite.
Survivability. Opal

Yes, he does have reason to use other rings
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I also like reasonable debates.

LunarFrost

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2017, 02:12:24 PM »
Sylas isn't, BY AND OF HIMSELF, broken.  It's the COMBO of power plus statline plus gold start plus synergistic rings plus synergistic amulets that push things into pitchfork territory.  I recall that when the Bandits were still backer-only and Sylas's power was +1 sword per killed guard, he was considered a dead-tie with Horace for worst power.  The reason the change has people raging is threefold:


Sylas isn't broken, but he's extremely strong and is considered unfair due to him essentially having a 4th item for the small price of a bounty. His base stats are fine. His starting gold is fine. However, the rings and amulets, although they are strong, aren't the things that push him into OP territory. Again, that would be his passive.

1: Swords SUCK in Armello.  Since you have to surrender defense or utility to get them, they're the weakest tools in the game.  So folks suddenly getting rolled by someone who CAN swing enough of them without being paper-thin jolts their worldview - "Isn't someone with 3 swords SUPPOSED to be an easy kill????"  Shield-sword balance has been broken since day 1, and it's just now boiling over because Sylas is pointing the problem out and because the item deck has started to reach Trickery deck levels of glutted with things people don't look for.

Swords don't suck. They are strong symbols, but not as strong as shields. It's the balance of Shields to Swords that makes them good as autos and to be honest, utility sucks in Armello as any auto symbol or +die is better, most of the time. You also say that Shield Sword Balance has been broken which is kinda wrong.

The item deck has 90 cards-

Armello has 23 shield equips total ; 20 items (22%) and 4 treasures. You can also use Resist if you want a 4th item instead of a +1 Stat.

Armello has 14 sword equips total ; 13 items (14%) and 1 treasure.

2: He gets it back instantly vs. the King.  Sylas during backer-only days was considered complete garbage - because it didn't come right back on attacking the King.  Yes, you COULD run right back up to 3 cruising speed - IF there was one more dawn left in the game.  Most of the time, when it matters, there isn't, and a Sylas WITHOUT those extra swords is...Mercurio with less Wits.  Not exactly threatening.  So people see him get crushed to weak by Reprieve and cheer...and then he attacks the King and their reaction is "But I crippled him!  He can't DO THAT!" and cue the forum rage.

Sylas before buff was weak ; after buff he's extremely strong. And when you say "Not exactly threatening" you also have to account for burns and equips which varied. Sylas now only has to worry about one or the other thanks to his passive.

3: He, like River and Thane, can be used to rush the game at a truly ugly speed.  Combine Watch amulet with Leather Armor and one or two burns or Resist amulet plus two or three burns and you've got the palace cracked on turn 2 or 3.  Then throw yourself at the king and burn every offense you have - you're gonna die, but you're also going to knock off upwards of 6 turns if you don't just end the game outright.  So people see Sylas, and they think "*CENSORED* it, I want a GAME not a speed course!" and cue the forum rage.

Yes, Sylas can rush, but Rushers tend to not win and usually get reported as they only want to farm instead of actually playing the game. Also, all rushers highly depend on luck to break into the palace

2 of these three problems would be solved by applying Bounty levels AFTER the triggering event across the board - there is ONE corner-case I can think of where this could have a detrimental effect on a player, and that's someone plays Armistice, the other party attacks them, and via miracle-mile rolling, the attacker takes a dirtnap.  Applying Bounty levels after the attack would deprive the attacked player of 1 Prestige and 2 Gold, and the attacker would wake up in Clan Grounds with a Bounty.  All other instances of intra-player combat with bounties involved already function this way as far as I recall - attacking someone on a Dungeon/Stone Circle when Royal Eyes Only is in effect and attacking someone who's in the Palace all apply the Bounty AFTER the attack is resolved, unless I'm mistaken - because you don't enter the hex in question UNLESS you kill or push your opponent, so being slain by your intended victim already doesn't award them the bounty.


Your suggestion would only fix 1 problem. The 3rd one means that the rusher will just pick another character which doesn't solve that issue.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

Sniktch

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2017, 08:51:48 PM »
Sylas isn't, BY AND OF HIMSELF, broken.  It's the COMBO of power plus statline plus gold start plus synergistic rings plus synergistic amulets that push things into pitchfork territory.  I recall that when the Bandits were still backer-only and Sylas's power was +1 sword per killed guard, he was considered a dead-tie with Horace for worst power.  The reason the change has people raging is threefold:


Sylas isn't broken, but he's extremely strong and is considered unfair due to him essentially having a 4th item for the small price of a bounty. His base stats are fine. His starting gold is fine. However, the rings and amulets, although they are strong, aren't the things that push him into OP territory. Again, that would be his passive.

1: Swords SUCK in Armello.  Since you have to surrender defense or utility to get them, they're the weakest tools in the game.  So folks suddenly getting rolled by someone who CAN swing enough of them without being paper-thin jolts their worldview - "Isn't someone with 3 swords SUPPOSED to be an easy kill????"  Shield-sword balance has been broken since day 1, and it's just now boiling over because Sylas is pointing the problem out and because the item deck has started to reach Trickery deck levels of glutted with things people don't look for.

Swords don't suck. They are strong symbols, but not as strong as shields. It's the balance of Shields to Swords that makes them good as autos and to be honest, utility sucks in Armello as any auto symbol or +die is better, most of the time. You also say that Shield Sword Balance has been broken which is kinda wrong.

The item deck has 90 cards-

Armello has 23 shield equips total ; 20 items (22%) and 4 treasures. You can also use Resist if you want a 4th item instead of a +1 Stat.

Armello has 14 sword equips total ; 13 items (14%) and 1 treasure.

2: He gets it back instantly vs. the King.  Sylas during backer-only days was considered complete garbage - because it didn't come right back on attacking the King.  Yes, you COULD run right back up to 3 cruising speed - IF there was one more dawn left in the game.  Most of the time, when it matters, there isn't, and a Sylas WITHOUT those extra swords is...Mercurio with less Wits.  Not exactly threatening.  So people see him get crushed to weak by Reprieve and cheer...and then he attacks the King and their reaction is "But I crippled him!  He can't DO THAT!" and cue the forum rage.

Sylas before buff was weak ; after buff he's extremely strong. And when you say "Not exactly threatening" you also have to account for burns and equips which varied. Sylas now only has to worry about one or the other thanks to his passive.

3: He, like River and Thane, can be used to rush the game at a truly ugly speed.  Combine Watch amulet with Leather Armor and one or two burns or Resist amulet plus two or three burns and you've got the palace cracked on turn 2 or 3.  Then throw yourself at the king and burn every offense you have - you're gonna die, but you're also going to knock off upwards of 6 turns if you don't just end the game outright.  So people see Sylas, and they think "*CENSORED* it, I want a GAME not a speed course!" and cue the forum rage.

Yes, Sylas can rush, but Rushers tend to not win and usually get reported as they only want to farm instead of actually playing the game. Also, all rushers highly depend on luck to break into the palace

2 of these three problems would be solved by applying Bounty levels AFTER the triggering event across the board - there is ONE corner-case I can think of where this could have a detrimental effect on a player, and that's someone plays Armistice, the other party attacks them, and via miracle-mile rolling, the attacker takes a dirtnap.  Applying Bounty levels after the attack would deprive the attacked player of 1 Prestige and 2 Gold, and the attacker would wake up in Clan Grounds with a Bounty.  All other instances of intra-player combat with bounties involved already function this way as far as I recall - attacking someone on a Dungeon/Stone Circle when Royal Eyes Only is in effect and attacking someone who's in the Palace all apply the Bounty AFTER the attack is resolved, unless I'm mistaken - because you don't enter the hex in question UNLESS you kill or push your opponent, so being slain by your intended victim already doesn't award them the bounty.


Your suggestion would only fix 1 problem. The 3rd one means that the rusher will just pick another character which doesn't solve that issue.

Re rushers:  Completely missed the point.  It's not that "this fix will stop rushing", it's "this fix will make SYLAS not as viable for rushing, which will lessen the aversion reaction people feel towards him as one of the three prime 'end the game fast' characters".  As such, it would indeed fix two of the three problems with Sylas at one stroke.

RE sword-shield balance:  As you've noted MANY times upthread, an 'ideal' shield build uses TWO shield items - Battle Armor plus any of the +1s is considered 'basic', thus you NEED twice as many instances just to hit even distribution.  And if you're looking at 3 +1s, no Battle Armor, you're gonna use all 3 on shields.  That thins the % even more.  Tell me honestly:  If you have the choice between an Oak Spear and a Trusty Shield, which one are YOU going to equip?

RE backer-state vs. current state:  The differences between the two are precisely what I laid out - It took TIME for Sylas to build up in backer-state.  The lack of pierce vs. guards did not matter in the slightest.  Further, in backer-state, he could ONLY lose them on death - he's actually EASIER to debuff now because of that.  The biggest change is the obvious one - he CAN instantly get back to cruising speed by attacking the King, and use the swords in that same fight.  Take that away, and he's significantly weaker.

TenNoOkami

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2017, 02:56:35 PM »
Well if you think so, i would say that maybe The Traitor Bounty should be atribued to players only AFTER the fight with the King? So he doesn't get the 3 automatic swords in fight just for attacking the King but does retain one from the palace invasion.

Players getting a bounty after the king fight doesn't fix Sylas as much as it only prevents him to get an auto traitor in the king fight, it doesn't prevent him from having traitor before hand. It's a nice suggestion, but I honestly don't see it being that effective as most Sylas players usually already have a 2nd tier bounty (2 auto swords) before the fight. Due to them breaking into the palace or having a bounty before hand. He's also still insane in fights outside the palace.

On Twiss...i really just definitely cannot see it. Evidently, she's good, but i think it is incredibly inaccurate to accuse her of being 'the strongest hero in armello'(As to me that tittle goes to either Barnaby, Magna, Elyssia or Ghor) that is way too much of a stretch, my experience playing as her and against her really doesn't show that, i mean no disrespect to your view, but i think your perception on her is way off. i believe she has very exploitable weaknesses, namely, everyone can use her to dump useless cards, she doesn't represent a threat most of the time, she's never a roadblock, she's perfectly killable in safe ways using spells and tricks, some characters excel at damaging her without having to risk any returned damage(Thane, River, Ghor) Once in the palace she's easy picking cause her evade doesn't work there(also thanks for removing the palace peril!) and the fact she has trouble standing her ground makes her easy to delay on her path. There is plenty of downsides to her that make her perfectly manageable.

To give you an idea of how strong Twiss is, let me tell you this: name a hero that can reliably draw cards from the any deck? Sargon is probably your answer due to his naturally high wits. Now imagine if Sargon had near infinite magic and could survive more easily in games. That's Twiss. Twiss rarely ever dies. She can pretty much draw any card she wants. And she is the only character in the game that can shuffle the spell deck by themselves. Meaning more cards for her to use to kill you.

And what's in the spell deck? Buffs like Mirror Image and Feral to help her do kingslayer. Rot cards that can gain her a massive amount of rot if she choices to do that. A lot of damage spells that can pretty much kill anyone she wants for prestige. And she can cast crystallize really early if she happens to get it. Not to mention I've played several games with that playstyle and I'm usually done with all my quest when the king has 5-6 HP ; both day and night. How? She can draw multiple warps easily early on in the game where the only other character that can do it is Sargon.

And if you still, for some reason, don't believe me, then watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WafQ5_oGibo

This is a video that was taken from a stream back in the beginning of May showing how busted Twiss can be if played as dirty as possible. It's an hour long, but it will prove my point if I somehow didn't prove it before.

---
Barnaby is the most balanced character in the game that has several aggressive playstyles and an amazing set of rings.

Magna has poor base stats with a good passive, but she makes Chainmail obsolete and Berserker turns her passive off. She's slightly below the line of balance.

Elyssia is a balanced character. Similar to Barnaby, but not as aggressive and not to mention her passive is board reliant. She's not as balanced as Barnaby.

Ghor is 1 of the 3 worst heroes in the game. He shares that spot with Amber and Mercurio. Ghor's passive is extremely board reliant and his base stats (3/6/3/4) are the worse in the game.
i still think Sylas is fine, mostly for the fact having a bounty making him a priority target off sets the sword benefits because, ultimately RNG will still rule in most cases and having garanteed 3 swords is NOT even close to garanteed wins or prevention of prestige loss and even having his bounties claimed granting other players much more prestige, ultimately, causing garanteed 3 damage(which can be nullified by enemy defenses) in fights, while a good advantage doesn't garantee wins on its own. i really don't see any problems with him, just like i said a couple slaps on the wrist like making the bounty come after attacking the king should suffice for making him more fair when killing the king in concerned because that's the only real problem i see, its still pretty fair game when compared to other heros when on the board.

On Twiss, i did watch the video. its a nice proof of concept that shows well what you mean with how 'broken' she can be, however, that is anecdotal evidence, i had my fair share of games where i tried playing such a build with Twiss only to have a Sana spirit strike me for 9 damage every time i got close to a quest and achieving the fastest spirit stone victory i ever seen on Armello, or a Barnaby with Master Spy body block my quest path, even get chazed back to Clan Grounds by an Arrow-slinging-Silver-Lancing River who had nothing but bad iten cards, even an Elyssia blocking every village and flinging all sorts of trickery cards and some spells at me as she also was going for prestige. In that video...we had two full tank/fighters with EXTREME bad luck and low wits who got killed by banes even with 4 auto shields, and a Scarlet player who was doing...nothing even going as far as walking one tile and ending their turn(probably just farming keys and chests...)...off course that Twiss build would work great against such a crew specially with such a godlike starting hand...with bribery on it when someone gets blacksmith so soon. There's also the chances of drawing nothing but useless spells while the good ones go to other players. This game everything went on the favor of Twiss, from adversaries to the luck of the draw, for a true perception one game is not enough, you need a larger sample size then just one perfect game.
 Still i do get your point, the consistency in which Twiss can do that is pretty obnoxious while for other heros to trump her they do relly on luck more then she does and if adversarries all just decide to go fighter build they'll probably have no means of ever responding to what she is doing. However, i kind of like that a spell casting builds actually work and are viable winning strategies going pure spell caster, instead of just fighters reigning supreme on the meta of the game, so i don't think spell casting builds need nerfing, i just think they need more counterplay for one who is NOT going such way.
Not that i think she absolutely needs nerfing, but some solutions i could see for her would be;
a-lower her starting Wits value in favor or higher Fight. Maybe switching 1 of each so 3 Fight 5 Body 4 Wits 4 Spirit, maybe even putting another of spirit to body so she has even scarcer starting magic and spell range while enhancing her 'survivor' status. 3 Fight 6 Body 4 Wits 3 Spirit. Not a big fan of this, but i think it would be a start if we want a more well rounded starting build to make her less slippery.
b-Give the bandits their own set of rings, with BAD ones...i think having celestine amethyst and pink topaz makes the bandits as a whole a little too good for ring selection, that could fix Twiss indirectly depending on what sorts of ring perks the bandits get. Prefferably none of their rings should give magic points for burning cards, if anything i reckon amethyst is the true culprit of her 'brokenness' if she did not have access to that ring, she wouldn't be so agravating as magic would be a much rarer resource for her, Sargon is manageable for this precise reason, so this should be enough to control her. This would be my preffered change as it would not only correct her but also offset the bloated power within the ring selection of the bandit clan as they have only the best rings of all clans at their disposal(exception of the stolen rat clan ring).
c-Making her ability activate only during the night, so players would have a 50% window of opportunity to try to smite her in battle.
Again, just adding ideas to the pot.

My point about mentioning the other heros wasn't the fact that i think they need blancing, on the other hand i think all heros i mentioned are fine and i like them the way they are. The fact i even mentioned 4 should say that i don't aprticularly think they're broken.
i love Barnaby, Ghor, Magna and Elyssia and i think they're fun to play. You did say 'strongest' and this is my definition to seeing the 'strongest'. i do however understand what you mean about Twiss, she is not really 'the strongest' hero in armello...she's just the most cheesy, currently at least.
Still...it is weird to me your comparison of Ghor to Mercurio and Amber...lol opinions....to me, he is leaps and bounds ahead of them xD Sure his power is map reliant...but its still amazing compared to...nothing or occasionaly okay-ish.

LunarFrost

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2017, 05:38:17 AM »
Re rushers:  Completely missed the point.  It's not that "this fix will stop rushing", it's "this fix will make SYLAS not as viable for rushing, which will lessen the aversion reaction people feel towards him as one of the three prime 'end the game fast' characters".  As such, it would indeed fix two of the three problems with Sylas at one stroke.

Sylas already isn't amazing for rushing. Rushers usually rely on either high wits or high spirit ; Sylas has neither. He's too luck reliant to rush with.

RE sword-shield balance:  As you've noted MANY times upthread, an 'ideal' shield build uses TWO shield items - Battle Armor plus any of the +1s is considered 'basic', thus you NEED twice as many instances just to hit even distribution.  And if you're looking at 3 +1s, no Battle Armor, you're gonna use all 3 on shields.  That thins the % even more.  Tell me honestly:  If you have the choice between an Oak Spear and a Trusty Shield, which one are YOU going to equip?

Yes, the ideal for shield autos is three, but you can work with a minimum of two autos. And to your choice on Oak Spear and Trusty Shield, that depends on the situation. If I was Sylas and I already had two items giving me two auto shields, I would go Trusty Shield, but on any other character I would do Oak Spear.

RE backer-state vs. current state:  The differences between the two are precisely what I laid out - It took TIME for Sylas to build up in backer-state.  The lack of pierce vs. guards did not matter in the slightest.  Further, in backer-state, he could ONLY lose them on death - he's actually EASIER to debuff now because of that.  The biggest change is the obvious one - he CAN instantly get back to cruising speed by attacking the King, and use the swords in that same fight.  Take that away, and he's significantly weaker.

It did take time for Sylas to build up, but most of the time he just did quest instead of building up his passive. And pierce vs guards does matter. It means you can't be walled and it means you have a higher chance of killing them. Yes he's easier to debuff now due to one exact card that has two copies ; Reprieve. Actually, if you took away him getting three swords against the king instantly, he would still be insanely strong. Because, it seems you didn't realize it, but it's extremely easy to get a bounty in Armello in fact, it's easier to get a bounty then to kill a guard.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

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LunarFrost

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2017, 06:07:53 AM »
i still think Sylas is fine, mostly for the fact having a bounty making him a priority target off sets the sword benefits because, ultimately RNG will still rule in most cases and having garanteed 3 swords is NOT even close to garanteed wins or prevention of prestige loss and even having his bounties claimed granting other players much more prestige, ultimately, causing garanteed 3 damage(which can be nullified by enemy defenses) in fights, while a good advantage doesn't garantee wins on its own. i really don't see any problems with him, just like i said a couple slaps on the wrist like making the bounty come after attacking the king should suffice for making him more fair when killing the king in concerned because that's the only real problem i see, its still pretty fair game when compared to other heros when on the board.

Sylas with a bounty doesn't have just a good advantage, he has a great advantage. The ability to have an extra item in fights that no other player has access to is insane. And yes, him having a bounty makes him a target to spells and trickery, but his high body allows him to take more punishment then what players can give out on a regular basis. And yes, the three free auto swords pretty much means he wins any fight except in the extreme scenarios.

On Twiss, i did watch the video. its a nice proof of concept that shows well what you mean with how 'broken' she can be, however, that is anecdotal evidence, i had my fair share of games where i tried playing such a build with Twiss only to have a Sana spirit strike me for 9 damage every time i got close to a quest and achieving the fastest spirit stone victory i ever seen on Armello, or a Barnaby with Master Spy body block my quest path, even get chazed back to Clan Grounds by an Arrow-slinging-Silver-Lancing River who had nothing but bad iten cards, even an Elyssia blocking every village and flinging all sorts of trickery cards and some spells at me as she also was going for prestige.

You say its anecdotal evidence...then you put up your own anecdotal evidence....

Sana with spirit strike kills everyone, not just Twiss, so that's not a Twiss only counter.

Same with Barnaby getting Spy Master, which is a follower. Surprised you didn't kill him with spells considering you're drawing 1/8 the spell deck every turn.

Then you say River was shooting arrows at you while she had Silver Lance...a treasure. Which is very hard to get.

If you got stopped by a trickery spamming Elyssia, then I don't know what to say other then you're playing poorly.

Everything you pointed out was luck based or a scenario that works against everyone.





In that video...we had two full tank/fighters with EXTREME bad luck and low wits who got killed by banes even with 4 auto shields, and a Scarlet player who was doing...nothing even going as far as walking one tile and ending their turn(probably just farming keys and chests...)...off course that Twiss build would work great against such a crew specially with such a godlike starting hand...with bribery on it when someone gets blacksmith so soon. There's also the chances of drawing nothing but useless spells while the good ones go to other players. This game everything went on the favor of Twiss, from adversaries to the luck of the draw, for a true perception one game is not enough, you need a larger sample size then just one perfect game.

Luck isn't a defying point in an argument. And to tell you the truth : that starting hand wasn't god tier. Also, Blacksmith didn't win Twiss the game. Twiss doesn't need "the luck of the draw" when she's drawing 1/8th the spell deck per turn.


Still i do get your point, the consistency in which Twiss can do that is pretty obnoxious while for other heros to trump her they do relly on luck more then she does and if adversarries all just decide to go fighter build they'll probably have no means of ever responding to what she is doing. However, i kind of like that a spell casting builds actually work and are viable winning strategies going pure spell caster, instead of just fighters reigning supreme on the meta of the game, so i don't think spell casting builds need nerfing, i just think they need more counterplay for one who is NOT going such way.
Not that i think she absolutely needs nerfing, but some solutions i could see for her would be;

a-lower her starting Wits value in favor or higher Fight. Maybe switching 1 of each so 3 Fight 5 Body 4 Wits 4 Spirit, maybe even putting another of spirit to body so she has even scarcer starting magic and spell range while enhancing her 'survivor' status. 3 Fight 6 Body 4 Wits 3 Spirit. Not a big fan of this, but i think it would be a start if we want a more well rounded starting build to make her less slippery.

b-Give the bandits their own set of rings, with BAD ones...i think having celestine amethyst and pink topaz makes the bandits as a whole a little too good for ring selection, that could fix Twiss indirectly depending on what sorts of ring perks the bandits get. Prefferably none of their rings should give magic points for burning cards, if anything i reckon amethyst is the true culprit of her 'brokenness' if she did not have access to that ring, she wouldn't be so agravating as magic would be a much rarer resource for her, Sargon is manageable for this precise reason, so this should be enough to control her. This would be my preffered change as it would not only correct her but also offset the bloated power within the ring selection of the bandit clan as they have only the best rings of all clans at their disposal(exception of the stolen rat clan ring).

c-Making her ability activate only during the night, so players would have a 50% window of opportunity to try to smite her in battle.
Again, just adding ideas to the pot.

Her main problem is Amethyst, but even without it she makes Sargon obsolete.


My point about mentioning the other heros wasn't the fact that i think they need blancing, on the other hand i think all heros i mentioned are fine and i like them the way they are. The fact i even mentioned 4 should say that i don't aprticularly think they're broken.
i love Barnaby, Ghor, Magna and Elyssia and i think they're fun to play. You did say 'strongest' and this is my definition to seeing the 'strongest'. i do however understand what you mean about Twiss, she is not really 'the strongest' hero in armello...she's just the most cheesy, currently at least.
Still...it is weird to me your comparison of Ghor to Mercurio and Amber...lol opinions....to me, he is leaps and bounds ahead of them xD Sure his power is map reliant...but its still amazing compared to...nothing or occasionaly okay-ish.

The reason I say Ghor is in the same realm as Merc and Amber is that he has the worst base stats in the game with bad ring selection. Not to mention his hero power is either good or bad ; due to map gen. Near to the same usefulness as Amber drawing a treasure from a dungeon.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

TenNoOkami

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2017, 01:20:54 PM »
Sylas with a bounty doesn't have just a good advantage, he has a great advantage. The ability to have an extra item in fights that no other player has access to is insane. And yes, him having a bounty makes him a target to spells and trickery, but his high body allows him to take more punishment then what players can give out on a regular basis. And yes, the three free auto swords pretty much means he wins any fight except in the extreme scenarios.
As i said i think his power IS awesome. All you did there was list reasons to pretty much keep it as is, he is a good character, and i love his risk to reward playstyle as far as fights are concerned. To gain advantage in fights he risks handing out free prestige and gold to other players, but that is not SO easily exploiatble to the point it becomes just a liability to him, this is a pretty fair design, i do not think he is opressive or too dominating among the players, he has one advantage sure, but at a cost and risk that grows in a corresponding manner as his advantage does, anyone playing their cards right can deal with that, specially when cards like sharpshooter are a thing and when we do have a fair amount of heros with battle oriented powers, heck trading even(death for a death) with someone with high bounty can be extremely benefitial. So i'm sorry but i just do NOT agree he needs any nerfing other then the really minor tweak to the bounty when attacking the King just so he is not too confortable when doing a Kingslay always having 3 swords upon initiation, maybe remove the whole...rewards automaticly growing at dawn(this mechanic is not good anyways for many reasons), and that's really it.

You say its anecdotal evidence...then you put up your own anecdotal evidence....

Sana with spirit strike kills everyone, not just Twiss, so that's not a Twiss only counter.

Same with Barnaby getting Spy Master, which is a follower. Surprised you didn't kill him with spells considering you're drawing 1/8 the spell deck every turn.

Then you say River was shooting arrows at you while she had Silver Lance...a treasure. Which is very hard to get.

If you got stopped by a trickery spamming Elyssia, then I don't know what to say other then you're playing poorly.

Everything you pointed out was luck based or a scenario that works against everyone.
What else do you utilise as response to someone else's experience? i can't say you're wrong on your experience, that THAT specific game didn't happen or present any fact that will make your display invalid, its how you lived it and its very true to you and that game is also a good exemple of the concept you're portraying. So all i did was share what i've experienced to demonstrate the fact that there's more things that can happen and not ALL games go down like your exemple.

Indeed, most of what i mentioned are scenarios that can work against everyone and not specific 'Twiss counters'...However...giving Twiss specific counters was NEVER my intention, just to say that there are things other characters can do that actually work against Twiss, without having to go out of their way just because she's there. She's not untouchable as your whole premise seems to assume and try to give her way more credit then she deserves, and that is what the scenarios i exemplified are for: to show that she actually CAN be dealt with, by players using some general tactics and playing as they should instead of coming up with very specific Twiss counters that you need to bend your plans completely to do. That is what is desirable: you play with your opponents in mind, but not shape your entire strategy just to stop one specific opponent.

i wish you could see the bigger picture of my exemples instead of focusing on each of their little details to the letter, Sana, and anyone with high magic or good tricks can bomb Twiss back...at any time, play as, or have at least one more player utilising a zonning build against Twiss and you'll have a lot less problems against her, you'll be taking spells from the deck too and chances are you WILL get some of the good ones and not let her monopolise all the good spells in the deck, and eventually you will be able to bomb her too, any character using a zoning build can play her in kind, also Barnaby and anyone with high fight and body even without master spy can body block you from your quest, all it takes is a sailor lantern or divination...even just wild guessing and using the map strategicly, and you'd be surprized how hard it can to kill someone with 6 body who is constantly drawning healing items when you're using spells only or you think you can get 3 immolations in a single turn reliably 100% of the time exactly when you need them? River with or without silver lance would be dealing free damage to Twiss, that is something she can do against any evade users, silver lance just doubles that damage garanteeing she can kill you in one turn, also, iron pike is a thing, anyone with it and one roll of sword and you get a pierce pretty much garanteeing one free damage on her, no risk of backlash and its a rather common item anyone can wield, and you'd be surprized how other players in the game actually have agency and cunning of their own, and their ability to play and their actions can thwart even someone who is not playing poorly specially when you get focused, Twiss doesn't automaticly make everyone else dumb, unable to draw good cards of their own and incapable of making solid plays just because you picked her, a smart player on Elyssia can beat the likes of Twiss with a little bit of luck of the draw, that's just a fact, no game of armello goes exactly like another, you seen to be under the impression this build of Twiss is invincible and dictates the entire game by herself or something and that no other player can do ANYTHING to stop her and she can win no matter what, and extremely exagerated position...but this is the point of my exemples, to show that other characters can use GENERAL manuevers to rival and even trump her if they don't only play builds which Twiss counters(full combat tank builds with low spirit and wits). If you have Twiss spell bombing in ropes for a prestige win and everyone else is trying to do kingslaying and wasting turns...then they're gonna have a bad time, another player going for prestige through the game of cards instead of battle dices will counter her and make the game a lot more engaging for everyone else too.

Luck isn't a defying point in an argument. And to tell you the truth : that starting hand wasn't god tier. Also, Blacksmith didn't win Twiss the game. Twiss doesn't need "the luck of the draw" when she's drawing 1/8th the spell deck per turn.
Its funny saying luck isn't a defying point when the game of armello is all about luck on the draw and on the dices...but i digress as this won't go anywhere. Has it not indeed?...while its true Blacksmith did not win Twiss the game directly...taking it away from Sylas severily hindered his ability to win, it was an early play that snowballed his game into oblivion. Still your second line is a lot more interesting because its something i do agree on...her true 'cheap' strength is the fact she can pretty much ignore resources...namely, draw magic cards>burn magic cards>get magic to cast the good ones, hince and repeat, THIS is what 'breaks her' in this playstyle, making it so she can just draw spell cards nonstop with no drawback like every other character doing the same has to face(full hands and lack of resources to utilise them as often), so...
Her main problem is Amethyst, but even without it she makes Sargon obsolete.
THAT...the thing we actually agree 100% on, Amethyst, take that out and you kill the most obnoxious part of this build and make her control build a lot more tolerable and balanced for everyone, less brain dead, more competive but doesn't make her completely useless. This is the 'nerf' i'd give her optimally: remove Amethyst from the bandit ring pool.

i mean i'm all in for balance, but i'm really not a fan of characters and playstyles being completely ruined because people can't deal with it or because its a different playstyle then what THEY think the game should be about. i mean...one of the people on the video(beg your pardon if it was you) said 'this is bad design!' ..its really not... Its not really bad design as much as it is an oversight to allow her to have Amethyst which allows an exploit of get card>burn card>use card consistent loop, fix this exploit, and she's golden.