Author Topic: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance  (Read 2863 times)

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Echo

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2017, 10:57:05 PM »
River is guaranteed to kill the 1 HP king and win: Nobody bats an eye.
Sylas gets 3 swords instantly against the king but may still not win: Everybody loses their sh--.

River has a 2 turn window at most to do that while Sylas gets 3 swords literally any time he attacks the king.  If River waits that long, she also gave her opponents as much time as possible to win before her.   Also, there will be no second attempts if she fails to enter the palace that late.  Not to mention, there are two declarations, life support and desperate defense, that can counter that River strategy.  Yes, when one power deals triple the damage, is at maximum strength in more situations and has less counters than another comparable power, people will lose their shit.
Still not a guaranteed win even if he has more chances.

Of all the times I played against Sylas players attempting to kill the king I witnessed the following:

- Mutual death. (5 / 10)
- King put down to minimal health but not killed. (3 / 10)
- Sylas got the kill with the skin of his teeth.  (2 / 10)

Sylas needs shield items to prevent mutual death, but then he may not get enough attack to kill the king.
Sylas needs sword items to increase his chances to kill the king but then mutual death is more likely because:
- 1 in 6 chances to roll shields.
- 2 in 6 chances to give the king extra dice.
- King has 2 in 6 chances to roll shields.
- King has 1 in 6 chances to miss.

With those odds the game can screw you over even with the best possible items and followers equipped.

Here's another one:

Thane can fully armor himself, stack sword cards and get a guaranteed kill anytime if he just so happens to have enough sword cards. Of course the king can still roll 10 rots to rip him up.

Either way, Sylas is no more powerful than Thane, River, Zosha or any other combat based character. All of them have their up and down sides.

PS: I need to correct my previous statement on Sharpshooter: Sylas can be sniped for 4 damage anywhere on the map, making this possibly the most potential threat on the trickery deck. And in my starting hand in my last game I had just that card and kept holding onto it till the end of my game because there was Sylas running around and it was so worth it.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 11:01:42 PM by Echo »

LunarFrost

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2017, 07:38:13 AM »
River is guaranteed to kill the 1 HP king and win: Nobody bats an eye.
Sylas gets 3 swords instantly against the king but may still not win: Everybody loses their sh--.

River has to be in a very specific scenario for that to happen and if she somehow did get that off, then she deserves it. You certainly don't. People have a reason to get mad about Sylas he's too strong.

Sylas needs shield items to prevent mutual death, but then he may not get enough attack to kill the king.


Everyone needs shield items in the king fight, but the odds of him getting enough to kill the king is higher then anyone else. He's the only character that can reliably kill the king while the king has 5 HP. How can he do that? His passive.

Sylas needs sword items to increase his chances to kill the king but then mutual death is more likely because:
- 1 in 6 chances to roll shields.
- 2 in 6 chances to give the king extra dice.

- King has 2 in 6 chances to roll shields.
- King has 1 in 6 chances to miss.

With those odds the game can screw you over even with the best possible items and followers equipped.

Sylas doesn't need sword equips against the king, he has his passive. His passive gives more autos then every other sword equip in the game.

And to combat those odds, every character has a certain tool at their disposal called "Burning." This reduces the odds of them missing dice as the burned cards to guarantee symbols. This is something all smart players do against the king and that usually wins them games except in the most extreme cases.

And want the best possible build for Sylas? 2 Heavy Plate Armors, 1 War Hammer, Resist, and Blacksmith. 6/8 auto build that isn't counting burns. I would love to see the king get past that.

Thane can fully armor himself, stack sword cards and get a guaranteed kill anytime if he just so happens to have enough sword cards. Of course the king can still roll 10 rots to rip him up.

Honestly, the king would rip anyone up with 10 rot and even then that's such an extreme case that is completely invalidates itself.


Either way, Sylas is no more powerful than Thane, River, Zosha or any other combat based character. All of them have their up and down sides.

Sylas is the strongest combat character in the game. His only real competition is Thane, but he can do stuff that Thane can't. Like reliably killing the king while the king has 5 HP. No other hero can do that safely and live while also getting the kill without insane luck. Sylas doesn't need insane luck, he has his passive.
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Echo

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2017, 10:19:10 AM »
You are forgetting that Sylas is a walking target practice for nukes when having a bounty. Also you are forgetting that if you fail to stop ANY hero from getting into the palace, it's over.

Having the perfect item combination for the job is hard to come by in the first place. With low wits and gold Sylas hardly has the luxury to burn through the item deck to equip the right items, even with the bandit ring that yields 1 gold for each guard killed.

LunarFrost

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2017, 02:03:06 PM »
You are forgetting that Sylas is a walking target practice for nukes when having a bounty. Also you are forgetting that if you fail to stop ANY hero from getting into the palace, it's over.

Anyone who has a bounty is "walking target practice." That doesn't apply to only Sylas. And here's the thing, if someone enters the palace, the chances of them getting to their turn while in the palace varies from game to game. The factor that varies is the other enemy heroes. Are they close enough? Do they have Magic? Did the Spell Deck just reshuffle? Just because someone enters the palace doesn't mean it's game.

The only situation that whole argument is pointless is when the person entering has HRW or Strategist . Which the item deck only has 3 and 1 of respectively. So, they are kinda hard to get.

Having the perfect item combination for the job is hard to come by in the first place. With low wits and gold Sylas hardly has the luxury to burn through the item deck to equip the right items, even with the bandit ring that yields 1 gold for each guard killed.

True, Sylas usually starts out with 4 wits due to the Think Amulet or 3 with anything else, but all he really needs is two shield items (one item with Resist) and he's in a good spot for the rest of the game if he can get a bounty early enough, which isn't hard.

Also Serendibite isn't the ring you want to give Sylas when he needs gold, if you need gold, get pink topaz. 1 Settlement's income is more than enough.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 02:06:17 PM by LunarFrost »
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Kletian999

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2017, 11:46:06 AM »
I think Sylas would be fine with simply:
1. Traitor bounty from attacking the King applies post battle, so he has to have his bounty ready in the first place
2. Pierces are unnecessary.

TenNoOkami

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2017, 10:23:46 AM »
After playing them all, and off course against them too, i want to add my own cents in the matter.

Sylas: He is amazing, i love how his power works. i think he is strong enough to be a fun hero to play, but he also comes with drawback to this that makes him manageable. i honestly think he's in a great spot and in no need of rebalancing or nerfed, he can be dealt with is pretty fair therms. Honestly he's in a similar place to River with 'killing the king' ability, but just like River, late game...anyone who gets to slap the king can get the kill when he's like really low(1 hp for instance) its fair game to everyone, the game is so close to its conclusion its pointless to keep picking bones with who can kill the king easier when everyone has a fair shot at it.

Scarlet: i think her powers is pretty good as it is...i had games in which i had three followers equiped and 3 on hand with her...when all other characters struggle to get even one and you can have that many with some clever play and a little luck....i feel she is rather powerful if used right and with a little smile from lady luck...her powers is leaps and bounds ahead of Amber for instance. However it seems a lot of players think its weak...if i was to buff it without completely breaking her...maybe if she could put settlements in uproar by stopping at them and then she would have to use her next turn to stop the uproar to get a follower card then...that would give her the ability to sacrifice full turns in order to get her power to work. Useful...but very time costly, so there's a sacrifice to use it in this way.

Twiss: She has an amazing playstyle, people might be annoyed because they want to be able to attack her and go unpunished because of her low fight value...but the thing about her is...you just leave her alone, that's what she is suposed to enforce. Her power can be very useful against people hoarding good cards...but it can also work against her as you can literally 'use' her to dump bad cards and she never stays in your way as she flees after combat so she's not really a road block either, she is also spell bombable so its not like she's neither oppressive nor invencible. There is really little reasons to have gripes with her, its just that she has a 'don't mess with me' playstyle that more agressive players don't like...but i find it great. Every rat can play like her thanks to the evasion ring Turquoise, which is very popular among Sargons, as for the card stealing...that's just her own flair, there's a lot more counter play to card stealing then say...imagine if she was to rob people of gold? i think that would make her into a monster, the never ending item and trick card plays she would be doing would make her probably more opressive then Ghor.

Horace: Honestly i think he is the only Bandit who is in a bad spot. i do like his stat distribuition...but that's about it, his power is like...not useful...at all. Out of all times you play...when exactly is actually useful to move a guard out of the way instead of just killing them? Specially for the bandit clan who can get gold for killing them? i have not found a single situation in which his power came in handy...on the other hand it has only been a detriment...maybe because its my style to not care about the guards and even use them to burn useless cards. It is a pitty because i think he is cool as heck. The buff i would give him but without re-working his entire power would be...when switching with a guard he gains one AP instead of losing one and the same guard can only give one ap per turn, that would be useful to traverse the map and make even detours a viable strategy for him which would be cool and unique, and it would always work regardless of being with a bounty or not.

That is my view on the bandits.

Sylas=Awesome as is.
Scarlet=Good, could use a very SLIGHT tonning up.
Twiss=Awesome as is.
Horace=Buff would do a LOT of good to him.

Teii

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2017, 09:24:27 PM »
I strongly disagree with the notion that River's power is anywhere close to Sylas' in strength.  Even if Sylas is perfectly balanced, there is no way River's power measures up. 

Even a level 1 bounty gives Sylas the same damage potential from his power as River gets from hers.  Sylas still has the better power with just 1 sword in most scenarios though.  His power is in combat damage, so it is more likely to result in him pushing his opponent.  It works on defense, so it can allow him to stand his ground or even kill.  It only gets stronger from there.  Sure, River's power bypasses shields, but being non-combat damage is just as much a weakness as a strength.  Plus, Sylas' additional swords helps you power through shields anyway.

If we're just talking about the king, Sylas gets 3 damage compared to 1.  I'll always argue that the best way to use River's power on the king is to kill him earlier than other heroes.  River used to be unique in that she had an extra free point of damage on the king that is completely independent of burns, rolls and gear.  That means that River could kill the king a turn or 2 sooner than another hero with the same fight and gear.  A passive power also allows you to burn into the palace without the risk of not having your power when you attack.  Using that same logic, Sylas can do it 5 or 6 turns earlier than another hero with the same gear and fight. 

The situations where River has the better power are when Sylas has no bounty, does no damage while having vision or you really want to kill something that has 1 hp at the cost of ap.  Again, all of those are assuming Sylas is attacking because River has no power while defending.  In the case of River only doing damage with the arrow, she is still only doing the bare minimum and likely not accomplishing her primary goal. 

LunarFrost

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2017, 05:12:04 AM »
After playing them all, and off course against them too, i want to add my own cents in the matter.

Sylas: He is amazing, i love how his power works. i think he is strong enough to be a fun hero to play, but he also comes with drawback to this that makes him manageable. i honestly think he's in a great spot and in no need of rebalancing or nerfed, he can be dealt with is pretty fair therms. Honestly he's in a similar place to River with 'killing the king' ability, but just like River, late game...anyone who gets to slap the king can get the kill when he's like really low(1 hp for instance) its fair game to everyone, the game is so close to its conclusion its pointless to keep picking bones with who can kill the king easier when everyone has a fair shot at it.

Scarlet: i think her powers is pretty good as it is...i had games in which i had three followers equiped and 3 on hand with her...when all other characters struggle to get even one and you can have that many with some clever play and a little luck....i feel she is rather powerful if used right and with a little smile from lady luck...her powers is leaps and bounds ahead of Amber for instance. However it seems a lot of players think its weak...if i was to buff it without completely breaking her...maybe if she could put settlements in uproar by stopping at them and then she would have to use her next turn to stop the uproar to get a follower card then...that would give her the ability to sacrifice full turns in order to get her power to work. Useful...but very time costly, so there's a sacrifice to use it in this way.

Twiss: She has an amazing playstyle, people might be annoyed because they want to be able to attack her and go unpunished because of her low fight value...but the thing about her is...you just leave her alone, that's what she is suposed to enforce. Her power can be very useful against people hoarding good cards...but it can also work against her as you can literally 'use' her to dump bad cards and she never stays in your way as she flees after combat so she's not really a road block either, she is also spell bombable so its not like she's neither oppressive nor invencible. There is really little reasons to have gripes with her, its just that she has a 'don't mess with me' playstyle that more agressive players don't like...but i find it great. Every rat can play like her thanks to the evasion ring Turquoise, which is very popular among Sargons, as for the card stealing...that's just her own flair, there's a lot more counter play to card stealing then say...imagine if she was to rob people of gold? i think that would make her into a monster, the never ending item and trick card plays she would be doing would make her probably more opressive then Ghor.

Horace: Honestly i think he is the only Bandit who is in a bad spot. i do like his stat distribuition...but that's about it, his power is like...not useful...at all. Out of all times you play...when exactly is actually useful to move a guard out of the way instead of just killing them? Specially for the bandit clan who can get gold for killing them? i have not found a single situation in which his power came in handy...on the other hand it has only been a detriment...maybe because its my style to not care about the guards and even use them to burn useless cards. It is a pitty because i think he is cool as heck. The buff i would give him but without re-working his entire power would be...when switching with a guard he gains one AP instead of losing one and the same guard can only give one ap per turn, that would be useful to traverse the map and make even detours a viable strategy for him which would be cool and unique, and it would always work regardless of being with a bounty or not.

That is my view on the bandits.

Sylas=Awesome as is.
Scarlet=Good, could use a very SLIGHT tonning up.
Twiss=Awesome as is.
Horace=Buff would do a LOT of good to him.

Here's the thing Ten. I'm sure many appreciate your input into this discussion, but to put it bluntly, you're mostly wrong.

Sylas isn't close to River in any saying of the word. Sylas is currently the BEST Kingslayer in the game due to him getting 3 auto value with little to no penalty. His only real competition is Thane, but even he can't get 3 auto value for free. He's OP to put it simply. Not to mention that a 3/2 is considered a good build but usually needs 3 items ; Sylas only needs one and a traitor bounty.

Your suggestion for Scarlet is abusable and isn't good. She's fine as is, she doesn't need a buff or nerf.

Twiss...she's the strongest hero overall in Armello currently. She can easily go for all 4 play styles with no punishment. Not to mention her beginning stat spread supports her playstyle perfectly and she has a god tier ring selection that works even better with her then the other bandits. She needs a major Nerf. Yes, she needs a heavier nerf then what Sylas gets.

Horace does need a lot of change...he's the worst bandit.
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TenNoOkami

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2017, 03:24:19 AM »
Here's the thing Ten. I'm sure many appreciate your input into this discussion, but to put it bluntly, you're mostly wrong.

Sylas isn't close to River in any saying of the word. Sylas is currently the BEST Kingslayer in the game due to him getting 3 auto value with little to no penalty. His only real competition is Thane, but even he can't get 3 auto value for free. He's OP to put it simply. Not to mention that a 3/2 is considered a good build but usually needs 3 items ; Sylas only needs one and a traitor bounty.

Your suggestion for Scarlet is abusable and isn't good. She's fine as is, she doesn't need a buff or nerf.

Twiss...she's the strongest hero overall in Armello currently. She can easily go for all 4 play styles with no punishment. Not to mention her beginning stat spread supports her playstyle perfectly and she has a god tier ring selection that works even better with her then the other bandits. She needs a major Nerf. Yes, she needs a heavier nerf then what Sylas gets.

Horace does need a lot of change...he's the worst bandit.
Well if you think so, i would say that maybe The Traitor Bounty should be atribued to players only AFTER the fight with the King? So he doesn't get the 3 automatic swords in fight just for attacking the King but does retain one from the palace invasion. Honestly i just drew the parallel with River because i saw a lot of people doing it, i know that River's power is very situational requiring that 1HP King, but really here's no reason for the comparison. But this modifier would make it so Sylas doesn't get automatic 3 swords against the King just to attacking him but doesn't hurt his playstyle otherwise, i think that would be a reasonable change for him, i'm all in for balance but i don't want the characters being ruined.

On Scarlet...yes, half my post on her was saying how i think she's fine, the suggestion was just merely adding some ideas to the pot, not that i think she absolutely needs it, i do believe she is fine, just a lot of players seem to think she's not, so i was just adding some thought into it.

On Twiss...i really just definitly cannot see it. Evidently, she's good, but i think it is incredibly innacurate to accuse her of being 'the strongest hero in armello'(As to me that tittle goes to either Barnaby, Magna, Elyssia or Ghor) that is way too much of a stretch, my experience playing as her and against her really doesn't show that, i mean no disrespect to your view, but i think your perception on her is way off. i believe she has very exploitable weaknesses, namely, everyone can use her to dump useless cards, she doesn't represent a threat most of the time, she's never a roadblock, she's perfectly killable in safe ways using spells and tricks, some characters excell at damaging her without having to risk any returned damage(Thane, River, Ghor) Once in the palace she's easy picking cause her evade doesn't work there(also thanks for removing the palace peril!) and the fact she has trouble standing her ground makes her easy to delay on her path. There is plenty of downsides to her that make her perfectly manageable.

But yes...we fully agree on Horace, he needs something big done to him to be a viable and fun pick, its a little all over the place...a situational and sometimes detrimental power that CAN be completely nullified is really not something desirable. He could use a re-work, honestly, his power is worse then Mercurio's.

Vryl

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2017, 04:50:40 AM »
I just want to say that I don't agree that Sylas is OP.  I'm seeing a lot of "every hero is a spell target when they have a bounty", which is true, but most people *avoid* getting a bounty.  Sylas players are more likely to attack a guard, go onto a stone circle while it's forbidden or even play the bounty card on themselves, which means that Sylas will have that great big target on his back for much more of the game.  He may get up to three extra swords in battle against other heroes, but that still won't hand him a guaranteed win if he hasn't been getting the wonderful equipment that others have.  Easy example: Amber on the plains, using a silver lance and the ring (I don't have the ring names memorized) for +2 shields on plains.  Sylas may have an extra three swords, but unless he's got armor with reflection on it he's going to be in for a bad time if Amber decides to attack him for the extra prestige and gold - and that's just looking at one piece of equipment.

As for his automatic +3 swords when attacking the king,  it's true that you're more free to focus on defensive equipment than others, but you still need to draw and equip that equipment.  If you're running around with full plate on before you go for the king, then you're probably going to fail due to low mobility.  Sylas doesn't have great wits, so tying a hand slot or two up by carrying armor around until you're in the palace isn't a great idea either.  Another problem with that is the simple fact that if you wait until you're in the palace to equip your high shields armor, you have no idea what cards you'll draw on your next turn, and that can leave you with nothing good to burn once the fight starts.  Finally, there are cards that will strip cards out of someone's hand, making holding onto high shield gear until the last minute painfully likely to fail.

Basically, Sylas with four or five shields from equipment can be a pretty potent force against the king, but the same can be said of a lot of people.  Thane with a couple of sword cards to burn can be just as strong a contender in those circumstances, if not better.  Sana requires a little luck when rolling or maybe a royal shield, but she can manage with a solid set of defensive gear.  River can slip into the castle, shoot the king and not even worry overmuch about dealing damage in the ensuing battle if other heroes aren't on hand to blast her before she shoots again.  Yes, obviously three extra strikes helps, but the Sylas player either gets really lucky about gear - Lionheart Breastplate, Chainmail Shirt and the like - or holds onto slightly less useful armor and prays it'll hold up against the king.  That's pretty similar to a lot of battle plans.  And if Sylas *isn't* lucky and the best defense he's got is a trusty shield, then someone's going to be farming him for extra prestige long before he has a shot at the king.

LunarFrost

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2017, 04:33:56 PM »
Well if you think so, i would say that maybe The Traitor Bounty should be atribued to players only AFTER the fight with the King? So he doesn't get the 3 automatic swords in fight just for attacking the King but does retain one from the palace invasion.

Players getting a bounty after the king fight doesn't fix Sylas as much as it only prevents him to get an auto traitor in the king fight, it doesn't prevent him from having traitor before hand. It's a nice suggestion, but I honestly don't see it being that effective as most Sylas players usually already have a 2nd tier bounty (2 auto swords) before the fight. Due to them breaking into the palace or having a bounty before hand. He's also still insane in fights outside the palace.

On Twiss...i really just definitely cannot see it. Evidently, she's good, but i think it is incredibly inaccurate to accuse her of being 'the strongest hero in armello'(As to me that tittle goes to either Barnaby, Magna, Elyssia or Ghor) that is way too much of a stretch, my experience playing as her and against her really doesn't show that, i mean no disrespect to your view, but i think your perception on her is way off. i believe she has very exploitable weaknesses, namely, everyone can use her to dump useless cards, she doesn't represent a threat most of the time, she's never a roadblock, she's perfectly killable in safe ways using spells and tricks, some characters excel at damaging her without having to risk any returned damage(Thane, River, Ghor) Once in the palace she's easy picking cause her evade doesn't work there(also thanks for removing the palace peril!) and the fact she has trouble standing her ground makes her easy to delay on her path. There is plenty of downsides to her that make her perfectly manageable.

To give you an idea of how strong Twiss is, let me tell you this: name a hero that can reliably draw cards from the any deck? Sargon is probably your answer due to his naturally high wits. Now imagine if Sargon had near infinite magic and could survive more easily in games. That's Twiss. Twiss rarely ever dies. She can pretty much draw any card she wants. And she is the only character in the game that can shuffle the spell deck by themselves. Meaning more cards for her to use to kill you.

And what's in the spell deck? Buffs like Mirror Image and Feral to help her do kingslayer. Rot cards that can gain her a massive amount of rot if she choices to do that. A lot of damage spells that can pretty much kill anyone she wants for prestige. And she can cast crystallize really early if she happens to get it. Not to mention I've played several games with that playstyle and I'm usually done with all my quest when the king has 5-6 HP ; both day and night. How? She can draw multiple warps easily early on in the game where the only other character that can do it is Sargon.

And if you still, for some reason, don't believe me, then watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WafQ5_oGibo

This is a video that was taken from a stream back in the beginning of May showing how busted Twiss can be if played as dirty as possible. It's an hour long, but it will prove my point if I somehow didn't prove it before.

---
Barnaby is the most balanced character in the game that has several aggressive playstyles and an amazing set of rings.

Magna has poor base stats with a good passive, but she makes Chainmail obsolete and Berserker turns her passive off. She's slightly below the line of balance.

Elyssia is a balanced character. Similar to Barnaby, but not as aggressive and not to mention her passive is board reliant. She's not as balanced as Barnaby.

Ghor is 1 of the 3 worst heroes in the game. He shares that spot with Amber and Mercurio. Ghor's passive is extremely board reliant and his base stats (3/6/3/4) are the worse in the game.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

LunarFrost

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2017, 05:21:02 PM »
I just want to say that I don't agree that Sylas is OP.  I'm seeing a lot of "every hero is a spell target when they have a bounty", which is true, but most people *avoid* getting a bounty.  Sylas players are more likely to attack a guard, go onto a stone circle while it's forbidden or even play the bounty card on themselves, which means that Sylas will have that great big target on his back for much more of the game.

True, he'll have a target much longer than anyone, but whose actually willing to claim it?  He's scary to fight him because once he has a bounty, he basically has +1 item that no other hero has access to that build up to an insane +3 value at the end and RNGesus help you if he has Resist which means he basically has access to 5 items. And before you say spells, that counters everyone and isn't a suitable argument against Sylas alone as it greatly effects every hero equally.

He may get up to three extra swords in battle against other heroes, but that still won't hand him a guaranteed win if he hasn't been getting the wonderful equipment that others have.  Easy example: Amber on the plains, using a silver lance and the ring (I don't have the ring names memorized) for +2 shields on plains.  Sylas may have an extra three swords, but unless he's got armor with reflection on it he's going to be in for a bad time if Amber decides to attack him for the extra prestige and gold - and that's just looking at one piece of equipment.


Here's the thing: Sylas doesn't need wonderful equipment to be strong. His passive covers that easily.

 Not to mention the example you give is heavily one sided in such a specific scenario that it hurts. If you give a scenario then it needs to be realistic. The chances of that exact one happening is so low that it's not reliable. I could say the more realistic one. They are not on a plains. What then? Amber gets destroyed by Sylas in that scenario which is more likely to happen as no one is dumb enough to attack an Emerald/Silver Lance Amber on a Plains or to end their turn on one while she's near.


As for his automatic +3 swords when attacking the king,  it's true that you're more free to focus on defensive equipment than others, but you still need to draw and equip that equipment.  If you're running around with full plate on before you go for the king, then you're probably going to fail due to low mobility.  Sylas doesn't have great wits, so tying a hand slot or two up by carrying armor around until you're in the palace isn't a great idea either.  Another problem with that is the simple fact that if you wait until you're in the palace to equip your high shields armor, you have no idea what cards you'll draw on your next turn, and that can leave you with nothing good to burn once the fight starts.  Finally, there are cards that will strip cards out of someone's hand, making holding onto high shield gear until the last minute painfully likely to fail.

People don't run around with Heavy Plate Armor equipped if they draw it. It cost 4 gold and it reduces AP while wearing it. And in the early/mid game people burn it so they can draw something more useful. The only time they keep it is late game. And by then Sylas has 5-6 wits which is average for end game.

And there are 3 different cards that take cards: Wake the Trees (Uncommon Spell), Wandering Circus (Uncommon Trickery), and Glamour (Uncommon Spell). Wake the Trees and Wandering Circus are tile reliant and Glamour is the only card that directly targets players, so it's the most reliable.

And that only has a 1/5 - 1/6 chance at the very least to take the card you think Sylas is holding.

Basically, Sylas with four or five shields from equipment can be a pretty potent force against the king, but the same can be said of a lot of people.  Thane with a couple of sword cards to burn can be just as strong a contender in those circumstances, if not better.  Sana requires a little luck when rolling or maybe a royal shield, but she can manage with a solid set of defensive gear.  River can slip into the castle, shoot the king and not even worry overmuch about dealing damage in the ensuing battle if other heroes aren't on hand to blast her before she shoots again.  Yes, obviously three extra strikes helps, but the Sylas player either gets really lucky about gear - Lionheart Breastplate, Chainmail Shirt and the like - or holds onto slightly less useful armor and prays it'll hold up against the king.  That's pretty similar to a lot of battle plans.  And if Sylas *isn't* lucky and the best defense he's got is a trusty shield, then someone's going to be farming him for extra prestige long before he has a shot at the king.

The only characters that are a "potent" force against the king with full shields is Sylas and Thane. Every other character has to rely on dice rolls or drawing the right burns for damage. Sana needs luck or a treasure so that argument doesn't count. River can only do that while the King is at One HP otherwise she's in the same boat as most other heroes. 

And here's the thing. Sylas doesn't need Rare/Unique/Treasure gear to kill the king. He can work with Commons/Uncommons and easily get the kill without even worrying about burns. Lets say he has a 1/3 build in items; Shining Steel Sword/Battle Armor/Trusty Shield. His passive adds 3 swords to that making it 4/3. No other character can reach that number without using Rare/Unique/Treasure gear and/or Blacksmith. Not to mention that he still has burns for the fight just like everyone else and with his high body with 3 auto shields, he will have a hard time dying in that fight except in the most extreme scenarios.

Also your last sentence can apply to everyone. When you make an argument about a character, try to point out something they can do that everyone else can't in common scenarios. Like did you know that Sylas is the only hero that can reliably kill the king while the king is at 5 HP with decent equips. The only other thing that can do that is corrupted heroes, but that requires luck of you getting corrupted and to have enough rot in the first place.


« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 03:53:42 AM by LunarFrost »
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Kletian999

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2017, 10:21:54 PM »
Having an extra +1 sword does nothing to dissuade people from attacking you, especially with a basic bounty to claim (and if the character has more starting fight dice from stats, buffs, or the daytime buff).  Even +2 swords isn't unreasonable as long as you have some reliable shielding from gear and burns (god forbid you take resist too, it's not a bandit clan specific item, unlike the rabbit ring that's 2 free trusty shields on a common tile type).

Sylas is a 3 wit hero to start before buffs.  If he choses to start with 4 wits, he's only a 4 fight character, and if he has Resist, then neither of those stats go higher before quests.  If he really was holding a card, it'd be easy to time a glamour after a battle when his hand is almost empty.

Once again, I think you discount how long any character can live with a level 3 bounty on them (outside of getting a free shot during the king).  At level 3, Guards travel farther and the bonus more than pays for any broken alliance.


LunarFrost

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2017, 04:12:46 AM »
Having an extra +1 sword does nothing to dissuade people from attacking you, especially with a basic bounty to claim (and if the character has more starting fight dice from stats, buffs, or the daytime buff).  Even +2 swords isn't unreasonable as long as you have some reliable shielding from gear and burns (god forbid you take resist too, it's not a bandit clan specific item, unlike the rabbit ring that's 2 free trusty shields on a common tile type).

Sylas is a 3 wit hero to start before buffs.  If he choses to start with 4 wits, he's only a 4 fight character, and if he has Resist, then neither of those stats go higher before quests.  If he really was holding a card, it'd be easy to time a glamour after a battle when his hand is almost empty.

Once again, I think you discount how long any character can live with a level 3 bounty on them (outside of getting a free shot during the king).  At level 3, Guards travel farther and the bonus more than pays for any broken alliance.

Having +1 Sword can mean the difference between someone not fighting you and someone fighting you. You might not realize it, but, like I pointed out, Sylas doesn't need god tier equipment to be dangerous in a fight.

And Plains aren't common. Outside the 8 plains tiles that are always outside a CG, they are pretty uncommon. And Emerald is relying on you stopping on them.

A lot of end game builds that people try to go for are generally: 1/3 , 2/3 , 3/3. Those builds are the usually the best at keeping you alive in fights and allowing you to deal a bit of damage back. Now imagine if Sylas had anyone of those auto builds mid game. Even a tier 1 bounty can make those builds much dangerous then what they currently are. Tier 2 and 3 just make them so much stronger to a point where fighting Sylas isn't reasonable unless you had an extremely good reason.

Sylas does start out as a 3 wit hero and if he does pick think then he is only a 4 fight character...which is fine. 4 is the average early game and if he get's resist than that means he can only go to 5 wits, which is workable. And Sylas players don't hold onto cards early or mid game, again, not enough wits to reliably hold onto them and if he's holding onto a card it's for end game purposes.

And I don't discount how long a Sylas can live with a traitor bounty. He can genuinely live for a long time. The guy doesn't have high body for nothing. Yes, guards travel to you faster, but with good shield equips, they usually don't deal damage except in the extreme scenarios like a king's guard rolling 6-7 attack or even more.
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Sniktch

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2017, 04:29:38 PM »
You're assuming 'good shield equips' repeatedly.  I've gone MANY games without getting anything beyond a single Trusty or Feathered Helm.  Don't snarl about others having to rely on RNG for their scenarios when you're doing the exact same thing.