Author Topic: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance  (Read 4150 times)

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Stray

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Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« on: April 30, 2017, 05:22:30 PM »
Now that the Bandit Clan is public, I think that another look needs to be taken at some of their hero powers.

Sylas's power is, in my opinion, in a great spot. The change to tie it to bounty level keeps him from becoming completely unstoppable, and as his bounty level gets higher you want to kill him more. A high risk/high reward power that can still be countered by things like spells/killing and reprieve. That said, people might find him to be too strong, he might be toeing the edge.

Scarlet's I'm not sure about. In theory, I feel like the power is good. In practice, I've only seen Scarlet get a follower this way once in the 10 or so games I've played since release of the Bandit Clan. I'm honestly not sure how to rebalance it in a way that keeps the 'Rallying Leader' vibe. Making it work on unclaimed settlements is an option but it would be too powerful (there's generally 1 settlement by the clan grounds, so she's almost always get 1 or 2 followers off the bat.) Another option is give her another benefit to having followers (except maybe Stranger). Like the War Horn card, she could have +Fight/Dice/Symbols (swords/shields), or even +Prestige. Again, this doesn't really solve the issue of her not getting followers by capturing settlements BUT gives her an option to take advantage of followers gained in other ways (quests/dungeon roll). Followers tend not to be super common so I don't think it would be too powerful. That said, I'm not even sure if she's underpowered, because in theory her power seems sound and perhaps people just haven't been able to use her effectively yet.

Horace I think could use a buff. I made a suggestion in 2015 that I would like to reiterate:  In addition to his power, King's Guards ignore bounties against you, unless you are in the Palace. Heroes can still claim your bounty reward, and if you have a bounty you do not switch tiles with King's Guards (you will attack). Horace's power is currently used maybe once or twice a game. I think adding this will give him a small consistent buff that won't be too game changing (king's guard's aren't exceptionally dangerous, especially to a high Fight hero like Horace, but the saved prestige from accidentally killing a King's Guard could be valuable) and fits in with the lore and theme of his power.

Twiss....I really hate Twiss right now. She's in every game I play and I just...I hate her power. While she can be countered with spells or by..I guess, not attacking her, she's still really, really strong. I understand the pickpocket/thieving thing that LoG wants to go for, but I think stealing a card is WAY too punishing. I think it should be changed to 1 Gold, which would put her more in line with Mercurio's power (speaking of, I hardly ever see anyone play Mercurio, his power needs a serious look at as well). This way she still steals something from you, and can be punishing especially if you're hurting for gold, but it's not nearly as strong as stealing a card.

I would love to hear other's opinions. I'm not an expert Armello player or anything, these are just the thoughts/opinions of a regular player who absolutely loathes seeing Twiss in any game.

Kletian999

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2017, 04:11:35 AM »
Whenever I fight a Twiss I burn every card except ones I hate.  It's much easier to counterplay a card steal than a money steal.   

I agree Scarlet's trigger is a little too rare for the weaker followers that have diluted the deck since 2015, maybe she could get some gold bounty alongside the follower (to fuel using trickery to cause terrorized.

Here's an idea for Horace, what if guards Adjacent to Horace (or once they trade with Horace) got a fight buff as long as they weren't attacking Horace.  The guards feeling rallied in the presence of a great hero.

dragoncrescent

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2017, 05:55:56 AM »
I am in love with Sylas's hero power, at the moment. It's considerably easier to get rolling than the original, which was "Every guard killed gains 1 sword. All swords are lost on death". Thematically, it even works well with his lore: Sylas has a personal vendetta against the King. Anytime he attacks the monarch, he is immediately issued a Traitor-level bounty and handed 3 Swords in the fight. As much of a killing machine as he is, having a Bounty on your head at almost all times invites people to target him, and the buff to Sharpshooter effectively keeps him in check. Sylas is in a great place right now.

Scarlet isn't bad, actually. She has the same stats as River, who sees an unfortunate amount of play. I don't find her hero power particularly difficult to make use of. Just wait for a Bane to attack a town, or play a card to get one there. Malice Rising and Cub's Blood are handy for that. Additionally, there are King's Declarations that can cause Settlements to go into unrest, or you can just play Incite Revolution to a town you're about to enter. Scarlet is ultimately kind of like Amber - her power is handy, but it relies a bit on luck.

Twiss is possibly the most annoying thing in the world, but she's fine in terms of balance. She's a control monster, on-par with Elyssia and Sargon, but skewering her with Piercing dice may be the most satisfying thing in the world. Honestly, she's a great way to dump cards you don't need. If Twiss is nearby, you can burn them knowing you're in no danger of getting hurt. Or, as Kletian said, just 'feed' her bad cards like Poison Dagger.

Horace, I will agree, needs a bit of a boost. He's a juggernaut, which is fine by itself, but I can't really see any reason why getting a Bounty would deactivate his hero Power. It's so minor to begin with. I have actually recommended a similar boost for his ability: King's Guards trade places with him, and will never pursue him over a Bounty. Being an old guard himself, I imagine the constables just might be inclined to look the other way if they know one of their own has a shot at the crown. :D

Chariot Rider

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2017, 02:33:42 AM »
here are my thoughts about the valence of the new heroes. 

Atlas has a useful and well balanced ability that is unique.  I think most people can agree he shouldn't be changed.

Scarlet is a bit trickier.  Her ability is useful, but it is a bit hard to pull off however don't forget that cubs blood and Malice rising also help her activate her ability.  This being said I think she needs a small buff and here are few suggestions for that.  She could have her followers be immune to opponent card effects, thereby shielding them from cards like beheading and bribery.  As many people have suggested she could gain a stat or prestige buff from her followers.  However this is the buff I think is most interesting and therefore one of the better options.  She could have her followers symbols count as if she had burned them, however they are not unequiped.  This ability is good but not too good, it is comparable to a war horn that might give you defense, attacks during certain times of day, and possibly wyld or rot symbols.  This should be the buff for Scarlet.

Twiss feels a bit powerful and in my opinion this is caused by his evade.  If the developers removed or made it less prevalent (in forests twiss gains evade?) his he would probably be more balanced and less annoying.

Hoarice definitely needs a somewhat substantial buff.  Perhaps he doesn't spend AP when he swaps positions with a guard.  This would allow him to get around the board faster than other characters and save some AP.  You could probably do more to buff him but for now this is one suggestion.

These are just some first thoughts that came to mind.  These probably aren't the whole story but in conjunction with other buffs and nerfs these might work well mechanically and thematically.
Some people think chivalry is dead but I think it just has a really bad cold

Teii

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2017, 07:21:05 AM »
A desire to kill Sylas doesn't actually do anything to help you stop him anymore than wanting a wyld chain helps you avoid rolling 5 rot.  The high risk argument only holds weight if the prevalent strategy is to focus Sylas simply because he is Sylas and most players see him as the biggest threat in most games.  That kind of behavior and thinking suggests a significant imbalance.  Also, his 6 body gives him top tier survivability against direct damage cards, which is the most often mentioned counter.  His hero power can just as easily save him hp by making other players not attack him for fear of death or make it so he doesn't have to fight the same enemy multiple times because of his high chance to kill or move his opponent.

I think Scarlet is actually fine.  Giving her additional bonuses for having followers, whose only function is to give useful bonuses, seems silly.  If so many followers are so inconsequential, the followers should be buffed or Scarlet should get more chances to roll for them.  It would also be insane for her to luck out and get blacksmith or apprentice and receive another bonus on top of that.  The biggest issues with hero power compared to say Amber's is that Scarlet gets much less chances to roll and other players naturally block her from good followers by picking quests with those rewards.   You could give guards a 50% chance to not restore peace to settlements or let Scarlet pull a follower even when someone is questing for it.

I think Horace's power only makes sense due to lore.  Why does a hero with 5 fight and 6 body have a power that only serves to help him avoid conflict with guards, which are usually the least threatening creatures on the board?  However, I actually really like Kletian's idea about buffing the guards.  Horace heals the guard and gives him +2 fight permanently when switching places.  Guards lose 2 dice when attacking Horace.  That kind of change would let his power actually impact other players and the board while giving it a use when he has a bounty.

Twiss just needs to be easier to kill, and card stealing should have a counter besides having a hand of bad cards when you attack.  Swords should miss while Twiss is evading, and damaging her at all during combat should negate the card stealing.  As a side note, Twiss shows why all bears are 3 wits.  Amethyst on Twiss (and to a lesser extent Scarlet) is insane.

Kletian999

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2017, 09:11:34 AM »
Why should Twiss be easier to kill when she normally can't kill you?

2 Fight, no bonus to Banes/King like Sana, not infinite chance of buff spells like Ghor (while Amethyst is pretty great it still has limits if nothing gives her a burn chance).  Play a Twiss that hasn't boosted fight and see how every Guard stops you and every Bane kills you if you dare attack them.

If you attack a Twiss, unless you are hoarding a special card you have nothing to lose.  You Might injure her she can't hurt you or get in your way without Lion Armor.  If not, you can still burn cards you don't want and feed her the worst one.  Rive or Thane can easily chip her to death, or anyone with the Poppet.  If Evade is broken than why does the Rat ring for evade exist without issue?

Twiss exists as a character for people who want to avoid combat.  Without evade she becomes like Early Sana and would be the worst character.

For Sylas, you don't have to worry about him much at all until he has a bounty (even then before level 2 its barely noticable).  Consider how much of a game you or other players have carried a bounty (usually only a round or two),   He doesn't have the Wit or Spirit to easily break the gates and he'll usually lose the prestige game, even with the special ring, if anyone else can kill him. 

I think Scarlet would benefit from a small chance to recruit whenever she takes a settlement from another player, on top of the rescue guarantee, like a 15% chance.

LunarFrost

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2017, 12:07:48 AM »
Twiss's permanent evade is too strong.
Sylas having guaranteed  3 auto swords against the king is extremely strong.
Scarlet's power could use a tiny buff, but I've been able to see her power proc at least once per game, which is enough in my opinion.
Horace needs the most work. His passive doesn't suck, but it's really lackluster compared to other heroes.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

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LunarFrost

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2017, 12:21:02 AM »
Why should Twiss be easier to kill when she normally can't kill you?

2 Fight, no bonus to Banes/King like Sana, not infinite chance of buff spells like Ghor (while Amethyst is pretty great it still has limits if nothing gives her a burn chance).  Play a Twiss that hasn't boosted fight and see how every Guard stops you and every Bane kills you if you dare attack them.

If you attack a Twiss, unless you are hoarding a special card you have nothing to lose.  You Might injure her she can't hurt you or get in your way without Lion Armor.  If not, you can still burn cards you don't want and feed her the worst one.  Rive or Thane can easily chip her to death, or anyone with the Poppet.  If Evade is broken than why does the Rat ring for evade exist without issue?

Twiss exists as a character for people who want to avoid combat.  Without evade she becomes like Early Sana and would be the worst character.

Kletiain, a 2/5/8/6 build with Think and Amethyst on Twiss makes you unstoppable.  She always has damage spells. She always has a movement card. And not to mention that the spell deck has a number a perils she could essentially play to herself for burns.

She has too many resources at all times thanks to Amethyst and her high wits. Guards and Banes don't stop you as just kill them with whatever damage spell you have. And other players can't do much against you as you just kill them before they get to you, and if they do, what can they do? Do 1/2 damage thanks to pierce from the few things that grant it.
Sure you can give Twiss a bad card, but she'll just probably burn it in her next fight/peril. So it doesn't affect her much.

I've play with this build and against this build. You can't do anything against it unless you went like 3/5/8/5 as Sargon and you do the exact thing she does...except she has access to more magic then you do and can go for other victory conditions as well.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

Kletian999

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2017, 01:39:02 AM »
@Twiss
Guards take at least 2 full powered spells to kill since they have 5 HP.   Also the the number of peril targeting spells is less than 30% when you consider rariety for easy burns.  It's worse when you consider you don't want to cast or fail vs the Rot spells most likely.

I repeat, why is the Rat Ring acceptable when Twiss isn't?

I'll grant you that I enjoy the 2/5/8/6 or 2/5/7/7 builds, but you are ignoring the endgame.   If you use that build you are committing to Spirit stone or Prestige.  I've played games where that build gave me a palace key by 4th Dawn, but the stones to win never came and my inability to farm banes for prestige left me falling behind.

@Sylas
Having 3 swords vs the king isn't as important as not rolling 3 misses, or having 3 extra shields to actually survive.  It takes a pretty bad roll for characters to not deal 2 damage to the king on an assault.  You also aren't accounting for Sylas's weak peril resistance and high chance of being killed before he can reach his faraway quests.




Teii

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2017, 10:16:38 AM »
The rat ring doesn't remove the two biggest weaknesses of having permanent evade like Twiss' power, and it isn't given for free because you have to give up the other rings for it.  You can't attack Twiss without repercussions like other evading characters because she steals a card from you.  Twiss still has the ability to hold the palace outside of lionheart breastplate.  If Twiss needed to give up amethyst for evade, she wouldn't be nearly as bad for the game.

I actually think your point about it not making much sense to make Twiss easier to kill than she currently is because she can't kill you in combat is 100% fair and reasonable.  Following similar logic, I'd rather a nerf to Twiss be something more like damaging cards from her deal 1 less damage to heroes or are significantly more expensive.  I just feel the notion that she should die easier is less likely to get flak.


Every weakness or shortcoming I see mentioned for Sylas is something most heroes have to deal with on an equal or worse level. People keep saying killing Sylas is his weakness or he has a high chance to die.  How does that make any sense when he is tied for highest starting body?  If Sylas dies in any given scenario, you can safely assume anyone else would have died as well.  He is relatively weak to perils, but not compared to most combat heroes, which should be the point of comparison.  The only combat focused heroes with an objectively better chance at passing perils are River and Zosha because they have 1 more wits and equal spirit.  Everyone else either has equal wits and spirit or lower spirit.

Also, I get bounties and live all the time.  I see having a bounty as an advantage on anyone except Sana because guards are only threats when they roll a wyld chain or my gear is just that bad and they give me easy and consistent burn chances.  I also regularly breach the palace first even on 3 or 4 base wits heroes.  I don't get why people say breaking into the palace is hard on certain heroes.  Any time you randomly get a wyld and rot symbol, you basically have palace entry right there because a sun/moon or sword/shield are so trivial to find.  Once you have those, anyone with even 3 spirit can break in through the often unbuffed spirit perils while having clan affinity .  Sure, 8 wits builds have a much easier time doing that, but I can still regularly be first in the palace even when I only complete 1 or 2 quests in a game and have 5 wits. 

Yeah, Sylas' power doesn't mean much in a king fight when you attack him at 2 hp.  However, his power allows for early king attempts than any other hero.   If you never use free damage that's independent of items, burns and combat die to try to end the game sooner than most people will expect, you're wasting his power just like River's.

LunarFrost

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2017, 10:19:45 AM »
@Twiss
Guards take at least 2 full powered spells to kill since they have 5 HP.   Also the the number of peril targeting spells is less than 30% when you consider rariety for easy burns.  It's worse when you consider you don't want to cast or fail vs the Rot spells most likely.

I repeat, why is the Rat Ring acceptable when Twiss isn't?

I'll grant you that I enjoy the 2/5/8/6 or 2/5/7/7 builds, but you are ignoring the endgame.   If you use that build you are committing to Spirit stone or Prestige.  I've played games where that build gave me a palace key by 4th Dawn, but the stones to win never came and my inability to farm banes for prestige left me falling behind.

@Sylas
Having 3 swords vs the king isn't as important as not rolling 3 misses, or having 3 extra shields to actually survive.  It takes a pretty bad roll for characters to not deal 2 damage to the king on an assault.  You also aren't accounting for Sylas's weak peril resistance and high chance of being killed before he can reach his faraway quests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WafQ5_oGibo

Watch this video. It's a game with the Twiss build I've mentioned.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

dragoncrescent

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2017, 06:08:15 PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WafQ5_oGibo

Watch this video. It's a game with the Twiss build I've mentioned.

Ew. Okay, that's a pretty compelling argument. I might offer the counterpoint that Sylas, being a Bounty fiend, could skew positively a nuker's ability to gain prestige. I'd like to test a game without Sylas to see how much more difficult it would be for Twiss to be Prestige leader.

That said, the Bandit Clan might need to replace Amethyst with Jade or Amber. :\

Stray

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2017, 02:08:02 PM »
Horace heals the guard and gives him +2 fight permanently when switching places.  Guards lose 2 dice when attacking Horace.  That kind of change would let his power actually impact other players and the board while giving it a use when he has a bounty.
This also made me think of another idea. As Thane and Magna's powers are pretty much opposites, why not make Horace and Sylas?

9th Knight: King's Guards will trade tiles with Horace if he moves into their tile, unless he has a Bounty. When fighting a hero with a Bounty, Horace gains Shields equal to the hero's bounty level, up to 3.

This would make him a better counter to Sylas especially, and kind of enforce his status as a former knight. He has experience defending against fugitives and traitors.

Echo

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2017, 03:10:07 AM »
Hello I'm late for the party again.

Sylas's power is strong but it puts a massive target sign on your back for trickeries and spells. Sharpshooter can do 3 damage even while standing on palace grounds. Also:

River is guaranteed to kill the 1 HP king and win: Nobody bats an eye.
Sylas gets 3 swords instantly against the king but may still not win: Everybody loses their sh--.


Scarlet needs a buff, terrorized towns are a rare occurrence and the most are Banes causing it, but they normally get killed or deterred by guards or players making sure their town stays safe.


Horace I can agree with him buffing guards he trades places with... is a practical counter for Sylas if done right.


Twiss... well I played a few games with players using this hero but I haven't noticed anything severe. Seems balanced for now. Even after watching the gameplay video.

For now Horace and Scarlet seem to be weak in hero powers.

Teii

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Re: Bandit Hero Power Rebalance
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2017, 11:37:51 AM »
River is guaranteed to kill the 1 HP king and win: Nobody bats an eye.
Sylas gets 3 swords instantly against the king but may still not win: Everybody loses their sh--.

River has a 2 turn window at most to do that while Sylas gets 3 swords literally any time he attacks the king.  If River waits that long, she also gave her opponents as much time as possible to win before her.   Also, there will be no second attempts if she fails to enter the palace that late.  Not to mention, there are two declarations, life support and desperate defense, that can counter that River strategy.  Yes, when one power deals triple the damage, is at maximum strength in more situations and has less counters than another comparable power, people will lose their shit.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 11:42:58 AM by Teii »