Author Topic: Ways to start buffing rot.  (Read 1873 times)

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Kletian999

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2017, 01:42:32 AM »
Pride's Edge really took the fun out of Rot battles with the King.  If Corrupted characters could ignore pride's edge (even if they don't outrot the King) then going Rot would have much better chances.

Teii

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2017, 10:36:13 PM »
If corrupted players ignored pride's edge or death against the king, it would remove almost all the tension and excitement from the most important and climactic fight in the game.  Not to mention, those aren't even rot specific things.  Burning all your dice means you negate pride's edge.  Getting squire means you ignore death.  Overhealing, as Lunarfrost suggested, would be a more interesting and unique way to offset the health loss at dawn and pride's edge.

Kletian999

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2017, 10:03:03 AM »
Would it?

If you are corrupted but below the King, battle is a certain loss.  If prides edge wasn't going to bite you, you'd have a chance again.

Pre Prides edge, the challenge of the rot path was getting enough Rot in time and being able to open the gates despite probably not finishing the quests.   Having the King be easy was no less climatic than a spirit stone victory,  Having outrotting the King be near certain victory would give more parity to the good vs evil paths.

Teii

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2017, 02:36:46 PM »
Getting more than 2 rot is almost never an accident.  If you have high rot without exceeding or at least matching the king's, you just took a gamble and lost.  Abandoning plans that aren't working is part of the game.  If attacking the king is not an option, it's time to place your bets on spirit stones or prestige.  No other victory path has a mechanic that helps you stay the course beyond reason, so I don't see why rot should get one.

Yeah, spirit stones are just as anticlimactic, but that doesn't mean we need another victory condition that's just an auto-win when you click on the king.  Unless LoG has reconsidered, I believe parity among the victory paths is / was never intended.  Rot could use some changes to make it feel less stupid, but it is still primarily a penalty for failing perils, dying to banes, declarations or a cost of playing cards.  Generally, rot shouldn't be seen as better than losing money.

Blake Mizzi

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2017, 06:06:30 PM »
sneaking in, from the shadows....

We always intended Rot to be a curse, a cancer, a leperacey, but provide tempting options to lure players to slightly overpowered cards for the exchange of the curse. Rot Victories are meant to be agonisingly difficult and your "Legendary Hard" mode. I am planning some new power Rot cards that will tempt players even more so to dive into the Rot and get their hands dirty.

Saying the above, I have a good win ratio in the studio, and I almost always have my character get their hands dirty with the Rot, doesn't mean I get Corrupted every game or go for Rot victories, but a little dirty Rot card here or there can make all the difference.

I've said too much.... Darcy is coming to silence me..... I was never here

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LunarFrost

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2017, 09:33:48 AM »
We always intended Rot to be a curse, a cancer, a leperacey, but provide tempting options to lure players to slightly overpowered cards for the exchange of the curse.

Here's the thing Blake, currently out of all the Rot cards in the game, only two can be classified as "slightly overpowered".
Those cards are Hot Rot Wine and Marauder Gauntlets. Why?

Hot Rot Wine allows players to move one more space for the cost of 1 health and +1 Rot. This item really shines when someone is inside the palace as they can by pass an entire turn of waiting.

Marauder Gauntlets, this is debatable, but I do believe it's one of the best equips in the item deck due to the sheer value it gives. Not only that, it also competes with some treasures for equip slots just because it's that good.

But here's the problem. Neither of these cards "tempt" pure players to go Rot. In fact, the only thing that honestly "tempts" players to go Rot is an influx of Rot cards or an unlucky death streak to banes.

 I can currently point you to each of the current Rot treasures, follower, and say that all of them suck for "tempting" pure players.

All of them (except Poppet) follow the same rule: They only get equipped if the person getting the card has a bunch of Rot cards in-hand, otherwise, they are burned.
----
Bane's Blade only sees use on combat build characters due to the common player wanting as much dice as possible and has a high enough body to sustain it...for a bit.

Raven's Beak Dagger is a bad treasure. People only pick the card if they want a safe option OR don't have 3 equips while also having other Rot cards in-hand. It's not strong enough to stay after the initial +2 Rot.

Warlock, it has a strong passive, but the card itself isn't tempting enough for pure players as it sorta relies on you having a high body and a decent amount of spirit to get the most out of it

Reaper's Trident, the new rot treasure. It doesn't suck as a Rot treasure, but it's not great either. It also only sees use on either corrupted users or those with really high fight as it takes away 2 dice in battle.

The only Rot treasure that doesn't follow that rule is Poppet , but Poppet is a bad Rot card. If you're going corrupted, then It's just +1 Rot, but if you're pure, you can run a tanky build with it and rely on doing damage with poppet.

Rot Victories are meant to be agonizingly difficult and your "Legendary Hard" mode. I am planning some new power Rot cards that will tempt players even more so to dive into the Rot and get their hands dirty.

Here's the thing though, Rot Victories aren't difficult, they are unfair. It's one thing making something challenging, but with all the negatives Rot has with no positives, it isn't anything like a "Legendary Hard" mode you describe.

Rot is entirely RNG based. First, you have to draw enough cards or even get some from quest to get 5 Rot, but when you reach 5 Rot, you pretty much lose access to stone circles and therefore, the healing that "countered" the dawn damage.

 After that 5 Rot, you need to stay above the king which is, again, RNG. You're relying on banes to spawn near you and to draw Rot cards. So, what happens if you did stay above the king and you got into a fight with him, well you have to hope that two things don't happen.

1- You don't miss a lot of dice.

2- The King doesn't get a crit chain.

If any of those things happen, then the fight against the king is pretty much over. You lost. Otherwise, congrats. You won. What do you get? Nothing. You get nothing, but a fancy king animation.

Also, I know corrupted things get +1 health from killing stuff in fights, but fighting is already extremely risky and you have to KILL THEM without taking damage to get a net gain on health, which is highly unlikely, especially with the new King's Guards.

-----

If you actually want to make Rot cards tempting then you have to make them strong, because if you don't make them strong, then people have literally no reason to go Rot. Hell, players currently don't have a reason outside of bragging rights.

If you honestly want to tempt players, then  focus on what you did with Marauder Gauntlets...at least for future and current Rot items as that's the best thing Rot has.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 05:01:35 PM by LunarFrost »
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Wessolf27

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2017, 12:31:06 AM »
I have to agree that Rot has a thing around "power at a price" but the power it gives has to be something which is greater than the cost. If they're supposed to be treasures or followers, then they have to be somewhere on the near-gamebreaking levels of power in order to be considered tempting.

Like for example, a treasure that boosts all stats by one point at the cost of giving the player 2 rot and giving banes one extra dice for having it equipped (which is flipped once corrupted)

Or a spell that is basically a temporary bribery cast on a character. Giving them control over that character for one whole day/night cycle at the cost of 1 rot and a health point. (also being a little bit more common than the bribery trickery card itself) The flavor being that the follower was mind controlled to do the bidding of the caster

Another way is making dice rolls certain. Like, being able to fix a set number of dice in a battle. (I'd hazard only 2) Basically, a pre-casted auto burn without burning cards.

I mean, those shouldn't be taken as they are, just as examples of what could be done with the Rot.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 09:35:29 AM by Wessolf27 »
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Kletian999

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2017, 10:51:24 PM »
It definitely makes sense that Rot Treasure should be stronger than non-rot treasures if we want them to tempt (and much stronger than regular gear).    Their really needs to be a Rot Armor beyond the gauntlets... maybe we could save the Raven dagger by letting it help parry attacks.

Likewise comparing Rot consumables and spells.  Dark influence and Plague are the only cards strong enough I'd infect myself to use outside of rot gain, and Dark Influence doesn't even cost Rot.


Wessolf27

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2017, 09:32:31 AM »
Agreed, another idea might be a treasure that negates the effect of all special die. (pierce or shield) at the cost of 2 rot and a penalty to your body stat. (Its smaller version being a cheap equipment card that only negates one special die)
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Sniktch

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2017, 02:33:56 AM »
Here's an example of a Rot Treasure that would TEMPT a player.

Bane Blade

+3 Piercing Swords in Battle.  On first equipping, you lose 1 Body permanently.  +2 Rot.

THAT would make a 'pure' player really hesitate.  The Rot can be purged, but the Body loss is forever...but that much fixed, reliable offense is terrifying.  Make all the Rot treasures and equipment on-par with that, and you'll tempt more folks than just those who've been Temptationed and Plagued and Baned in one turn.

RE Marauder Gauntlets:  I think the main reason they're 'pretty solid' is they're shield gear without gold cost that happens to also give a sword, and as they only give 1, most players either expect they can pull a Cleansing later or already have one in-hand - negate any part of that, and a Trusty Shield becomes better.

Also, the main problem with Rot as a 'legendary difficulty' level is simply this:  It is a difficulty ANOTHER PLAYER can, WITHOUT YOUR DESIRE OR CONSENT, force you to start playing on, with no reliable way to shut it off.  That is bad, BAD design.  The only similar gameplay mechanic I can think of is the Gravelord pact in Dark Souls, which allowed a player to 'infect' a random other player's game with super-enemies - but it had TWO methods of direct removal, one being when the infection was created it also created a summon sign in the victim's world that allowed them to invade the Gravelord's world and kill them, which ended it.  The second method was far simpler:  Wait 15 minutes, then do a zone transition.  Problem was, if you went offline BEFORE the 15 minutes and transition, you reset the timer - and the reaction most people had to "Catastrophes!" was to shut the game down.

I'll note this mechanic did NOT return in either of the sequels, because it pissed off a LOT of people.  PvP?  Fine, if you're in online mode it's in the core rulebook, and you can shut it off by being Hollow in the first game, or burning a Human Effigy in the second.  But you do NOT let Joe McRandom difficulty-spike someone else's main gameplay without so much as a by-your-leave.

LunarFrost

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2017, 04:47:50 AM »
Here's an example of a Rot Treasure that would TEMPT a player.

Bane Blade

+3 Piercing Swords in Battle.  On first equipping, you lose 1 Body permanently.  +2 Rot.

THAT would make a 'pure' player really hesitate.  The Rot can be purged, but the Body loss is forever...but that much fixed, reliable offense is terrifying.  Make all the Rot treasures and equipment on-par with that, and you'll tempt more folks than just those who've been Temptationed and Plagued and Baned in one turn.

No, that wouldn't "tempt" a pure player to go rot, that would "tempt" a pure player to go kill the king as fast as possible as they pretty much secured the kill on a king that has 3hp or less AND they will most likely kill a 4-6 hp King with that item.

I want Rot to be strong, but that's straight up broken, also that card alone doesn't fix the problems rot has AND if you make even more rot cards around that level of power, then the game is suddenly "who can get X  card first"

I've already made two reasonable suggestions for Bane Blade that make it strong, but not broken.

2 Swords + 1 Die. -1 health after combat if you don't kill the enemy.

1 Sword, 1 Shield, 1 Die. -1 health after combat if you don't kill the enemy.

Both of these suggestions stick to Bane Blade giving a lot of stuff, but still has the damage draw back. Sure, the 2nd one may not be the most...creative idea in the world, but it's a lot better then what it is now.


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I also like reasonable debates.

Wessolf27

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2017, 09:39:38 AM »
Add pierce to the second option and I think you're good
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Sniktch

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2017, 12:35:31 AM »
Here's an example of a Rot Treasure that would TEMPT a player.

Bane Blade

+3 Piercing Swords in Battle.  On first equipping, you lose 1 Body permanently.  +2 Rot.

THAT would make a 'pure' player really hesitate.  The Rot can be purged, but the Body loss is forever...but that much fixed, reliable offense is terrifying.  Make all the Rot treasures and equipment on-par with that, and you'll tempt more folks than just those who've been Temptationed and Plagued and Baned in one turn.

No, that wouldn't "tempt" a pure player to go rot, that would "tempt" a pure player to go kill the king as fast as possible as they pretty much secured the kill on a king that has 3hp or less AND they will most likely kill a 4-6 hp King with that item.

I want Rot to be strong, but that's straight up broken, also that card alone doesn't fix the problems rot has AND if you make even more rot cards around that level of power, then the game is suddenly "who can get X  card first"

I've already made two reasonable suggestions for Bane Blade that make it strong, but not broken.

2 Swords + 1 Die. -1 health after combat if you don't kill the enemy.

1 Sword, 1 Shield, 1 Die. -1 health after combat if you don't kill the enemy.

Both of these suggestions stick to Bane Blade giving a lot of stuff, but still has the damage draw back. Sure, the 2nd one may not be the most...creative idea in the world, but it's a lot better then what it is now.

Neither of those would get a second look from me, because Rot daily damage plus damage after combat = losing proposition.   One of your items is Marauder Gauntlets with +1 die, +1 Rot, and a recurring penalty chance.  At baseline, +1 die would be roughly value for +1 Rot OR Treasure rarity, but not both.  Leaving the after-combat damage chance in makes it an even worse fail, doubly so because the 'bonus' is one more miss-permitting dice. 

Your other one is a Warhammer swapping -1 for +1, Rot cost for gold cost, and adding in a drawback.  Flat-fail due to the loss of defense.

Also, I have to disagree with you on something else - big surprise.  Hot Rot Wine isn't 'slightly overpowered'.  Given its beneficial effect is the same as Strategist - +1 AP - its two drawbacks for A: having no primary-resource cost, B: having more copies in the deck, and C: being in a deck that's drawn more frequently than Trickery are balanced overall.  Now, the actual balance of being able to gain +1 AP after moving into the palace, that's arguable both ways. 

LunarFrost

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2017, 06:45:48 PM »
Neither of those would get a second look from me, because Rot daily damage plus damage after combat = losing proposition. 

Considering your standards for what a "good" rot treasure should be, I'm not surprised. You want something that's the equivalent to an automatic win while I want something that actually competes with other viable treasures.

One of your items is Marauder Gauntlets with +1 die, +1 Rot, and a recurring penalty chance.  At baseline, +1 die would be roughly value for +1 Rot OR Treasure rarity, but not both.  Leaving the after-combat damage chance in makes it an even worse fail, doubly so because the 'bonus' is one more miss-permitting dice. 

Your other one is a Warhammer swapping -1 for +1, Rot cost for gold cost, and adding in a drawback.  Flat-fail due to the loss of defense.

To be fair, the Sword/Shield/Dice was an idea passed around with others. "Marauder Gauntlets is an amazing item, so why not have a 2nd one?" Not my favorite suggestion, but it would still work, while the other suggestion; the one with 2 swords and a die would work really well.

Again, this is assuming you're not running into fights at every single chance you get.

Also, I have to disagree with you on something else - big surprise.  Hot Rot Wine isn't 'slightly overpowered'.  Given its beneficial effect is the same as Strategist - +1 AP - its two drawbacks for A: having no primary-resource cost, B: having more copies in the deck, and C: being in a deck that's drawn more frequently than Trickery are balanced overall.  Now, the actual balance of being able to gain +1 AP after moving into the palace, that's arguable both ways.

Hot Rot Wine is "slightly overpowered". It's a strong card with 3 copies in the item deck AND it pretty much wins people games AND/OR gets them to a quest in 1 turn. Strategist requires you to have 3 gold (which varies depending on how the game went) and it's in an overall weak deck with the fact it only has 1 copy, sure you don't get rot or take damage, but every other thing I listed makes the card weaker then HRW.

And being able to gain AP while in the palace through HRW or Strategist is balanced as it allows 3 of the 4 victory conditions to have some since of viability and prevents a massive spell spam fest that would take place in most if not all games.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.