Author Topic: Ways to start buffing rot.  (Read 2510 times)

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LunarFrost

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Ways to start buffing rot.
« on: April 28, 2017, 03:14:20 PM »
Rot sucks. You know it. I know it. LoG (most likely) knows it.

I'm going to suggest ways to start making rot viable.

1. Better Treasures. Yes, usually treasures/Warlock/Dark Influence/Plague are usually all ways for people to start going rot as +2 rot is a decent starting place, but what if rot treasures were actually better and stayed around after the +2 rot?

Bane's Blade__+2 auto swords and -1 health after every fight if you don't kill your opponent.
This is to make Bane's Blade more guaranteed and for rot players, "guaranteed" is an amazing word.

Raven's Beak Dagger__+2 auto swords and +1 rot when you kill something infected.
Goblin's game is usually a starting point for rot players, but players usually don't take Raven's beak dagger if they're corrupted with even decent equips as this treasure requires you to equip it to gain rot and could potentially help other players going rot.

2. Overhealing. I believe rot players should have the special ability to gain temporary body from healing like Wyldweed/sap , regeneration, and killing enemies. This would allow rot players to more easily pass through stone circles while having 5-7 rot (depending on the amount of body), would help in fights, and also quest.  The cap for how much a player can overheal would be 2 and they would lose 1 at the start of your turn.

3. Insta killing spawned banes. If a corrupted hero is on a dungeon and has a greater rot count then 5 as a bane is spawning on their dungeon, then they would instantly kill the spawning bane without a fight and without moving while gaining normal fight rewards against a bane (+1 health and +1 rot).

This would remove the threat of banes spawning and causing them to be displaced due to it. It would also increase the rot gain rate which is really needed for rot players.

These are just a few of my solutions for buffing rot players. I only suggest these as Rot in general is a very unreliable way to win and any of these would help greatly.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

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Kletian999

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2017, 11:27:11 PM »
1. Definitely Rot treasure should be more useful and tempting to the pure.   For Bane Blade, I think just limiting the penalty to lack of kill and leaving the 3 dice would be my take.  For Raven's beak, thematically it should be weaker than Bane Blade, but from the mechanical circumstances to get it it should be stronger...  If both wielder and victim got Rot on KO, it could stay the weaker 1 sword while better fulfilling both it's original design (infect others) and not be a hindrance.

2. Letting kill-regeneration-only overheal would be very intriguing without being common enough to overwhelm.

3. I've long desired for Bane battle to occur before the player pushback, yet I also understand how the pushback makes banes a "strategic threat" even to opponents that trounce them.  It shouldn't be an autokill, but it would be nice to have the fight occur without spending AP like uncorrupted.

Crazy

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2017, 03:52:20 AM »
The problem with all of these suggestions is that they don't do the one thing rot needs to do to be useful... Effect non-rotted players.

I actually recently tried playing a few games going rot to try and prove myself wrong about my stance on rot. What did it get me? My ass kicked. I hilariously remember at one point I was at 8-9 rot on Thane, I went to try to kill Scarlet, only to not only not damage her once in 3 ap uses, I actually took damage during one of the bouts.

All I could think is that what is the point of all of this dark power I've ingested if it gives me nothing against non-rotted players. No advantage at all other then the possibility of healing a damage off of their corpse which guess what didn't happen once on that attempt as Everyone was kitted out in shield gear and resist amulet.

Really, what we have to ask is what is the actual point of rot. What does LOG want rot to be? If they want it to be a tempting "dark side" temptation with drawbacks, the power gained has to be worth the sacrifice of resources and turns to achieve it.

If they want it to be combat focused then it needs to effect all creatures, giving rot players an edge in combat. If they don't want it to be combat focused, then they need to buff the ever loving hell out of its utility. Give players more rot cards that mess with players, and give corrupted players the ability to get a hold of and use them easier. Because let me tell you right now, -1 health every dawn is probably the strongest debuff in the game. You are constantly leaking health, and have to expend resources to compensate(gold for healthpots, magic for body/regen, or movement for stone circles before corrupted) which means your having to manage more then other players just to have the same standing as them, and there is absolutely no benefit to it.

In fact, the worst part is once you get to 3-4 rot, you are almost guaranteed to be sitting in you clan grounds a lot as banes are now in the "they are going to kill you" range. Meaning you have to give up going for your quest too.

LunarFrost

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2017, 06:41:20 AM »
The problem with all of these suggestions is that they don't do the one thing rot needs to do to be useful... Effect non-rotted players.

You see, affecting pure players is where a line has to be drawn. If you suddenly have an edge in combat and they haven't done anything to gain rot, that's were people will call unfair. As it is. Sure, rot should just be better, but in your situation, it was more so that you didn't have Sword burns as Thane to push people.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

Crazy

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2017, 09:02:41 AM »


You see, affecting pure players is where a line has to be drawn. If you suddenly have an edge in combat and they haven't done anything to gain rot, that's were people will call unfair. As it is. Sure, rot should just be better, but in your situation, it was more so that you didn't have Sword burns as Thane to push people.

If rot only effects rot players, banes, and the king then I have to ask you something.

What is the point.

 And no, it wasn't just that situation. I have played multiple games going rot lately to test, and not once did having rot ever help me in any way. All it did was take health away, causing me to die or be sniped at dawn, and die to banes summoned at night until I got that "magical" 6 rot to not insta-die to them.

My suggestion? Every 2 rot you have over the other creature(including non rot players) +1 dice in combat, and change the rot amulet to +1 rot and every kill corrupted creature you kill gives you +1 rot. That gives the rot players a chance to actually beat people in fights, reduces the amount of bane suicides and makes it so a rot victory is actually freaking possible as your not getting 20 dice and giving half of those back to the king when you miss.


Sniktch

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2017, 12:49:56 AM »
Time to drop that library shelf onto the deck and see how bad it cracks.

From July, on the Steam forums:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/290340/discussions/0/358416640394163900/

From September, here:

http://leagueofgeeks.com/forums/index.php?topic=2722.msg19185#msg19185

And from May this year, on Steam: 

http://steamcommunity.com/app/290340/discussions/0/1327844097124679114/

And again from May, here:

http://leagueofgeeks.com/forums/index.php?topic=3092.0

So yeah, I've put a lot of thought into this, and Crazy and I have also had some VERY long discussions on this subject.  Rot is tied with the Stranger for the worst penalty in the game, which makes Dark Temptation anything but.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 12:53:31 AM by Sniktch »

Darcy Smith

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2017, 03:27:44 PM »
We're still keeping an eye on this stuff and your suggestions are very much appreciated. <3

LunarFrost

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2017, 02:19:22 PM »

If rot only effects rot players, banes, and the king then I have to ask you something.

What is the point.

 And no, it wasn't just that situation. I have played multiple games going rot lately to test, and not once did having rot ever help me in any way. All it did was take health away, causing me to die or be sniped at dawn, and die to banes summoned at night until I got that "magical" 6 rot to not insta-die to them.

My suggestion? Every 2 rot you have over the other creature(including non rot players) +1 dice in combat, and change the rot amulet to +1 rot and every kill corrupted creature you kill gives you +1 rot. That gives the rot players a chance to actually beat people in fights, reduces the amount of bane suicides and makes it so a rot victory is actually freaking possible as your not getting 20 dice and giving half of those back to the king when you miss.

Here's the thing, I never disagreed about the Utility part you mentioned before. I do agree that Utility is the way to go for buffing rot as well as making their cards generally better, but giving rot players this huge advantage over pure players isn't the way to do it.

If that becomes the case then you have to do the same with Banes and the King, which would make Normal kingslayer extremely hard  and Banes would be even HARDER to fight. Not to mention Banes would stay on the board much longer due to them getting more rot every night and could potentially cause a massive roadblock for quest.

And to go back to the topic: What point does Rot have currently? It doesn't have one. It's simply bragging rights tbh. Players really have no reason to go for it.

It is possible, I've done it countless times with proof if you want to see it.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

Sniktch

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2017, 09:16:28 PM »
Screw bragging rights.  This is about making a game mechanic WORK, as opposed to being an appendix - completely without positive function.

LunarFrost

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2017, 04:58:41 AM »
Screw bragging rights.  This is about making a game mechanic WORK, as opposed to being an appendix - completely without positive function.

I know this is about game mechanics, but the guy wanted to know it's current purpose, and it doesn't have one in-game.

It's simply bragging rights. Do I wish it was only bragging rights, no. I wish Rot more positive features.
I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

Sniktch

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2017, 05:39:50 AM »
The problem is, 99% of the opposition in games is OTHER PLAYERS.  Thus, if Rot does nothing to OTHER PLAYERS, then it is de facto useless - making your 'line drawn' about affecting 'pure' players simply maintenance of the status quo.  Guards do. not. matter.  Banes do. not. MATTER.  And Rot makes you more likely to mutual-kill the King or flat-out lose to him, depending on if you've got more or he does. 

A little math for your perusal - someone posted a pic of a Thane with 20 dice vs. the King.  Impressive, you think.  Problem is, 1/3 of those dice, on average, are going right to the King, meaning it's not 20-7...it's 20-14.  On average, every 6 dice is 3 hits, so Thane'll drop ~9 hits, dicing the King into giblets.  And the King'll drop ~6 right back, dicing Thane up just as good.  Except it's worse - the King ALSO rolls 1/3 defenses, so he gets ~5 shields, compared to Thane's ~3.  That's not even touching explosions - and the result is Thane just barely does more damage than the King, 4-3.  If Thane's weakened at all, rolls even slightly less than average, or the King gets a Rot string, Thane didn't just lose the combat, he lost the game.  And the best part?  Said pic?  The player's got 2 swords in hand.  Take the glut of Rot dice out of the formula, and he's got a guaranteed win just by using those, limiting his miss chances and guaranteeing damage.

THAT'S the big problem.  Rot gives NOTHING in every combat that MATTERS, every Peril that MATTERS, every quest that MATTERS...and when it DOES matter, Pride's Edge plus the rule of large numbers plus the lethality of Armellian combat equals screwed.

So either the basic mechanics of Rot as a game system need to go back to the drawing board, which is almost assuredly not happening, or Rot needs to be a factor in the parts of the game that MATTER - opposition from other players - to balance out its odds of ramming a sandpaper-coated telephone pole where the sun don't shine at roughly the speed of light when it comes time to throw down with the lion.

LunarFrost

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2017, 02:48:22 PM »
The problem is, 99% of the opposition in games is OTHER PLAYERS.  Thus, if Rot does nothing to OTHER PLAYERS, then it is de facto useless - making your 'line drawn' about affecting 'pure' players simply maintenance of the status quo.  Guards do. not. matter.  Banes do. not. MATTER.  And Rot makes you more likely to mutual-kill the King or flat-out lose to him, depending on if you've got more or he does. 

Guards and Bane are literally RNG. If you get into a fight with one, they could very well do nothing or kill you.
They also serve as roadblocks meaning their very presence is dangerous. To you. Also, Rot people are guaranteed to kill the king. If you don't burn and don't have a lot of body then yes, you'll die.

A little math for your perusal - someone posted a pic of a Thane with 20 dice vs. the King.  Impressive, you think. 

No that's not impressive. That's stupid. Why? 20 Dice is a very extreme scenario in Rot cases. The average scenario is 13-15 dice. And usually those people have up to 5-7 burns and -1 die due to Battle Armor so that leaves a person at 6-8 dice in most scenarios which is a lot safer then 18 dice. (And If you want to talk about 20 dice fight, Brun is a more likely example.)

THAT'S the big problem.  Rot gives NOTHING in every combat that MATTERS, every Peril that MATTERS, every quest that MATTERS...and when it DOES matter, Pride's Edge plus the rule of large numbers plus the lethality of Armellian combat equals screwed.


Rot does nothing in combat in pure players. Neither does Prestige or Stones. Same with perils and quest. Also the average roll for corrupted players against the king is 6-8 with burns which is pretty safe.

So either the basic mechanics of Rot as a game system need to go back to the drawing board, which is almost assuredly not happening, or Rot needs to be a factor in the parts of the game that MATTER - opposition from other players - to balance out its odds of ramming a sandpaper-coated telephone pole where the sun don't shine at roughly the speed of light when it comes time to throw down with the lion.

I do agree that rot needs some changes for the better, but giving it an advantage over every single other play style isn't the way to do it. That could potentially lead to snowballing. Also the king fight isn't bad with proper burns and decent amount of body.

I'm the guy that genuinely looks forward to change and when nothing changes, I worry.

I also like reasonable debates.

Kletian999

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2017, 10:24:35 PM »
Also remember, the Rot is Rabies.  It's BAD for you.  It's a curse.  Sometimes the mechanics support the story.

TenNoOkami

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2017, 03:48:29 AM »
A while back i commented on how The path of a Rot victory is pretty much like running through a thorny narrow pathway while everyone around douses you in gasoline and at the end of it, your prize is a russian roulette with less empty slots then bullets alocated in the magazine.

i do my absolute best to avoid rot like the plague it is, mechanicly...its mostly crippling in pretty much almost every way concievable, and thematicly...the rot is a dark curse that is setting armello in disarray, it just doesn't sit right with me. But that is just my own personal opinion, i do believe players who try for a rot victory should have a little perk or two.

Problem is, there is very little to do with it without re-working the entire system, as it is Ror is basicly Kingslayer, but harder...MUCH harder.

One simple fix that could give players trying for it a bit of an edge would be to allow a Corrupt Hero to always win the fight with the King so long as they actually manage to KILL him, even if they take enough damage to be downed themselves.
As such: Say Hero has 2 HP and King has 1 HP, the Hero deals 3 damage in the fight and the King deals 4, That would result in a victory for the Leader of Prestige, instead, the Corrupt Hero would Survive the Fight because the King died, even if they would've died as well..the victory then goes to the Corrupt Hero who made the attack instead of the leader of Prestige.

i don't think buffing rot cards and equipments is the right way to buff the rot victory because that doesn't fix the major problem: The King absorbs failed dices...the giant amount of dices a corrupt hero gets will more often then not work against them. i'm not saying my idea is the best way to fix it...but i believe the rot victory itself needs some mechanical adjustments, not a complete overhaul, but at least stand out a little bit from Kingslayer and have its own perk(s) as opposed to being negative in every single aspect.

Humblebee

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Re: Ways to start buffing rot.
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2017, 05:39:23 PM »
Quote
One simple fix that could give players trying for it a bit of an edge would be to allow a Corrupt Hero to always win the fight with the King so long as they actually manage to KILL him, even if they take enough damage to be downed themselves.
As such: Say Hero has 2 HP and King has 1 HP, the Hero deals 3 damage in the fight and the King deals 4, That would result in a victory for the Leader of Prestige, instead, the Corrupt Hero would Survive the Fight because the King died, even if they would've died as well..the victory then goes to the Corrupt Hero who made the attack instead of the leader of Prestige.

I think this is a great way to make Rot victories more attractive, but it feels a little clunky to add a new mechanic just for the King fight when corrupted. I think that adding in-fight survivability to the rot mechanic is the right idea to make it feel more rewarding, though.

Ignoring the dice you gain/give to your opponents, being infected pretty much universally lowers your survivability; you take 1 damage at dawn. This feels fine as infections are supposed to be painful and it cements the Rot as something that seems like it should be avoided, at least initially. Once corrupted, the Rot has a more neutral effect on out-of-fight survivability, as it now allows you to heal after combat. It also impacts mobility by restricting access to stone circles. There are also cards that interact with Rot, like Rite of Wyld.

From all this, it seems that gaining Rot would be a terrible idea were it not for the potential combat benefits. But, when the combat "benefits" can actually hurt you  in the King fight, what's the point?  Maybe there should be a type of battle between corrupted opponents called Corruption Battle, where if you overkill your opponent more they they do you, you only get reduced to 1 health (then get the heal, effectively ending on 2 health).

This would make gaining huge amounts of Rot feel awesome, as you could start running into corrupted foes for Prestige (and more Rot) without worrying about dying to them. It would add a good amount of excitement to slaughtering the king with a million dice and no armour.

I think this also works thematically. It implies there is more unknown magic about the Rot that can give those who commit to it unnatural life.