Author Topic: Ghor is still too overpowered, tone him down - actually maybe not  (Read 5725 times)

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Echo

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Re: Ghor is still too overpowered, tone him down
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2017, 07:39:56 AM »
And hello again!

Before I start, no, I'm not being sarcastic.

So I've been thinking... The new Arson card hardly deters Ghor... but so many players seem to have abandoned this character that now I learned to love him. Ghor became the ultimate solution to my long standing problem: teamers / trolls.

Ghor being the walking powerhouse of spells, he became my go to character when I end up in lobbies with friends in it. Seeing how these people just love teaming up against single players and ruin the fun, I decided to give them a challenge. I just had a 3v1 game with these people...

The results:
Not even half way in the game I was fully armored, 5 spirit stones and won by stone victory. I only completed just 1 quest, because I couldn't bother leaving my lovely patch of forest and nuking the map with spells. My strategy? Same as I mentioned earlier. Focus on wits and drawing spell cards only. Obviously the moment I picked up my 4th stone all the players in the game started spamming the "Go for Ghor" dialogue, so that was quite amusing.

And best of all... I didn't die.

So yes, I actually vote let's keep Ghor the way he is. Nobody plays him when I'm around, and I can abuse his ability when I end up playing with trolls and counter them. Never thought I'd learn to love this character for what I hate him for.

Shrapnel

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Re: Ghor is still too overpowered, tone him down
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2017, 10:40:56 AM »

Spells guide:
- Use Haste and Teleport to get to your quests. You can finish all 4 half way in if done right.
- Save Banish when you have a quest opposite end of the map, otherwise use it to deter a direct threat.
- Use buffs immediately, no questions asked. Exception to this rule is Focus.
- Use Focus before night fall for a bonus spell point boost. You'll see great use for it.
- If you have an opponent with low health, dish out whatever damaging spell you have to finish them off.
- If you have a stack of damaging spells, utilize them on the nearest opponent, he's your greatest threat.
- Crystallize is probably the only spell card in the deck that is hardly worth using unless you are 100% you want to go for stones... but you likely wont, see next rule.
- Utilize rot cards, don't worry about corruption, the sooner you're corrupted, the less threatening Banes are to you.
- Speaking of rot, Cleansing Wyld is useless for you. Use it on the nearest guard, don't do other players a favor.
- Lightning Strike is probably the only card you may want to use as a trap rather than direct it at a player. (unless you are forced to defend yourself form imminent attack). If you know where someone's quest is, drop it on their tile. Fortify it with cursed lands as much as possible.
- Spirit Strike is the only spell you want to use outside the forest, because as many seem to forget, it uses the spell points you have minus any discounts (Apprentice). So if you are in a patch of 3 with 4 spell points you will deal only 2 damage because of the 2 neighboring forests giving a discount.
- Rage Quit is probably the worst spell you can play, it's a combination of 2 spells. Here's how to do it:
1. Wait for morning, have a Wall of Thorns ready.
2. Check the player you want to screw up (preferably one that didn't take their turn yet).
3. Check the dungeon furthest from him (you know where this is going).
4. Cast Wall of Thorns on that dungeon.
5. Banish the target.
6. Watch the rage unfold.

With this strategy, Ghor is a powerhouse of spells that has little to no weaknesses. Test it with this method. If this isn't convincing enough, well I got no arguments left as to why this character is OP. If anything it will force me to record 10 play sessions and show it off from my perspective how this strategy breaks the game.

I knew majority of these spells how-tos, but the last one.. it's pure gold! Thanks for sharing these tips, friend ^^
I'll use that last one when i face a mindless troll, for sure ^^

Btw glad to hear that you enjoy this bear. He's a powerful weapon against annoying people, indeed.

Echo

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Re: Ghor is still too overpowered, tone him down - actually maybe not
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2017, 10:56:56 PM »
So with the increased number of friends made lobbies trolling around against lone players, I picked up the habit of playing Ghor just to have a fighting chance and that started to put the character in a new perspective. So turns out every time I raged about Ghor it was because the circumstances were heavily in his favor (including my own play sessions using him) but then it came to light in a few games that it was just dumb luck that created my harsh bias.

Ghor is overpowered if:
- There's at least a 3 / 4 patch forest in front of his clan grounds.
and / or
- There's at least two 3 / 4 patch forests 2 turns from his clan grounds.

However Ghor is proper weak and incapacitated when:
- There are 2 patch forests scattered on the map.
and / or
- There just a single 3 patch forest opposite side of the map.

Conclusion: Ghor is either too powerful or too weak, there is no in between.

Apparently those complaining he's too weak got the short end of the map generating system while those against it played in a map generated in favor of Ghor.

Yes, Ghor's hero power relies on map generation heavily. If you see the map not in his favor, you might as well quit there and then, because you're practically Sana walking around with less spirit, wits and Banes will eat you alive.

Arson also does manage to incapacitate Ghor if used wisely and well timed. I found this out when playing on a map with only 2 patch forests and when they used it on the one next to my clan grounds, the nearest patch was 2-3 turns away and those were also on 2.

Now I'm getting the distinct feeling that the devs are trying to manipulate the map generating system in an attempt to balance Ghor' power, hence during the recent updates I haven't seen many 4 patch forests generated 90% of the time. While it is appreciated they're trying to patch up the problem, that is not fixing it. Ghor needs to have his power rely less on map generation and more on actual skill and strategy. The map generated dictates how Ghor's game will be either too powerful or too miserable. The only other hero that relies on map generation is Elyssia with how settlements are placed on the map, but even she doesnt get heavily impacted by it when it's not in her favor.

Now I'm not sure if I suggested this for Ghor's power, but worst case I repeat myself:
- Give his stealth back.
- Give him 1 shield in a forest - Bark Skin.
- Give him 1 spell discount in a forest.

This wont make him overpowered but maintains his advantage in forests and most importantly relies less on map generation, because his power is now guaranteed.

Yeah, I think I covered both sides of the coin on this one.

dragoncrescent

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Re: Ghor is still too overpowered, tone him down - actually maybe not
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2017, 07:29:09 AM »
Indeed! These are a lot of the points I raised a few posts back - Ghor can be entirely crippled or utterly overpowered dependent on RNG. Now, to some degree, that can be mitigated for most characters. Barnaby relies on Item draws, so he burrows through the deck to maximize his chances. Amber likes visiting dungeons to get the most use of her power. Anyone can use Feral or Bark Skin to improve their quest chances. Ghor is the only character that has no real capacity to affect what kind of board the game generates.

Additionally, much like Sana in the beta version, it's not really 'fun' to be forced to adhere to certain kinds of hexes.

My favored change to his talent:
At the start of his turn, if Ghor is in a forest, he gains magic points equal to the number of forests connected. (IE one forest = 1 MP, 4 chained forests = 4 MP. Etc etc.)

He, of course, gains Stealth in forests again.

Kletian999

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Re: Ghor is still too overpowered, tone him down - actually maybe not
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2017, 10:21:10 PM »
I remain standing by what Echo says about Ghor.  The Power needs more middle ground and the best way to do that is to remove the forest cluster element.

Teii

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Re: Ghor is still too overpowered, tone him down - actually maybe not
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2017, 10:12:53 AM »
I'd actually be more than a little annoyed if Ghor got a middle of the ground change to his power.  Very few things are guaranteed to you in Armello, and that extends to nearly every hero power.  Ghor doesn't need guaranteed value from his power more than anybody else.  Guaranteed low cost spells isn't a healthy idea for the game anyway because the entire spell deck lacks counterplay and you literally can't run out of magic over the long-term.  If Ghor gets changes to mitigate the stealth weakness and/or make his power more consistent, I hope heroes like Barnaby get similar reworks.  Barnaby has been around with his inconsistent power for much longer, but I don't see anybody saying he should be hurt less when he has a  hand full of torches and adventurer's kits.

I also don't think heroes are automatically weak when they don't get good hero power value.  Several powers are basically best used by acting like they don't exist.  Even some good and consistent powers can basically do you no good.  The only logical way Ghor can be weak just because his power isn't carrying him when other heroes aren't is if his stat spread combined with 3 gold is just that bad.  I'd rather Ghor have more gold or even a different stat spread than more consistent spell spamming with little to no drawback.

dani

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Re: Ghor is still too overpowered, tone him down - actually maybe not
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2017, 06:48:52 AM »
I started to play this game as Sana, as I love the Spell deck which seems to have the most useful cards by far, and recently picked up Ghor to check him out. Bluntly put, he's too strong. It's simply a much better version of Sana, except of course fighting against Rotten creatures. However, this is more than made up by the fact many cards will literally be 0 Magic when Ghor is in any 3 patch Forest (i.e., -2 magic cost on every card). Look, I don't mind winning and I realize taking away his Stealth at night in forests is a huge deal (it really is, Stealth is amazing), but the investment other players have to generally make to get to him (in terms of AP) is usually not worth it, and for all you know Ghor will just Teleport out, Banish you away, or buff himself with Bark Skin. So either you go for him if he's on your path to a quest, but otherwise you'd just have to take the beating of getting nuked way more than against other spell casters. Again, I like it when I play him (free Spells  8)), but it just feels too broken.

I think the fact that you needed to take away stealth from a guy in a forest who actually IS a tree should have sounded some alarm bells :D If anything, a tree guy should obviously GAIN stealth when in a forest.

And yes, Ghor can surely lose when people are attacking him enough (his direct fighting capability is abysmal), but the problem is that generally speaking it's very hard to reach him, and you have many better things to do than hunt Ghor. Also, doing so opens up the map for the other 2 players.

Ghor would be perfectly fine if you simply (like other people suggested) give him a flat -1 Magic cost in any forest (regardless of # of adjacent forests), and give him stealth day and night in a forest (like I said, he's a tree, you cannot see him in a forest!). Remove the ability to cast to any forest, that only invites him to camp, and might make Ghor players actually consider going for Spirit to get some more range. It's unfortunate since I like Teleporting to a forest on the other side of the map with 4 Spirit but it's actually extremely strong as well :) He can simply cycle the Spell deck way too fast.

Kletian999

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Re: Ghor is still too overpowered, tone him down - actually maybe not
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2017, 10:01:06 AM »
Amen to that Dani.