Ghor is still too overpowered, tone him down - actually maybe not

[InariFox]

When I play as Ghor, I balance between spells and items and try my best to get a steady income to get some good equipment.
I don't depend on forests all the time and stay in them for a turn, I just focus real hard on quests and possible magic discounts if I can.
Having no stealth is pretty hard and I'm vulnerable to every possible thing in the day and night unless I get a rare ranger's cloak or fog of war.
I'm still rather upset at this nerf and I'm also taking a break from Armello for awhile.

[LunarFrost]

When I play as Ghor, I balance between spells and items and try my best to get a steady income to get some good equipment.
I don't depend on forests all the time and stay in them for a turn, I just focus real hard on quests and possible magic discounts if I can.
Having no stealth is pretty hard and I'm vulnerable to every possible thing in the day and night unless I get a rare ranger's cloak or fog of war.
I'm still rather upset at this nerf and I'm also taking a break from Armello for awhile.

Here's the thing Inari, you don't play Ghor like a wuss, you play him in a fair manner, but 90% of Armello's Ghor players don't do that. So it doesn't matter how YOU play Ghor, it's how the 90% does, and every future Ghor nerf that doesn't hurt his hero power significantly will only hurt you and other fair players alike. The Spammers won't care as long as they can camp forest patches.

[vardgo]

90%?  where did you get that figure?  out of the last 10 games that involved him when playing on public que, only 2 tried the troll tactic.  And it was easy to counter with a teleport here and a bit of stealth there.

[LunarFrost]

90%?  where did you get that figure?  out of the last 10 games that involved him when playing on public que, only 2 tried the troll tactic.  And it was easy to counter with a teleport here and a bit of stealth there.

I found the 90% from the same way you did; by playing Armello. 9 Ghors I played against did this play style over the conventional.

[Echo]

When I play as Ghor, I balance between spells and items and try my best to get a steady income to get some good equipment.
I don't depend on forests all the time and stay in them for a turn, I just focus real hard on quests and possible magic discounts if I can.
Having no stealth is pretty hard and I'm vulnerable to every possible thing in the day and night unless I get a rare ranger's cloak or fog of war.
I'm still rather upset at this nerf and I'm also taking a break from Armello for awhile.

Here's the thing Inari, you don't play Ghor like a wuss, you play him in a fair manner, but 90% of Armello's Ghor players don't do that. So it doesn't matter how YOU play Ghor, it's how the 90% does, and every future Ghor nerf that doesn't hurt his hero power significantly will only hurt you and other fair players alike. The Spammers won't care as long as they can camp forest patches.

I pretty much agree on this. I also experienced majority of Ghor players being a total pain. My normal strategy as Elyssia is all about collecting decent items, draw a spell card each night, once my equipment is complete draw trickery instead and of course fortify all settlements on the map. Once I'm all set up, I don't just go around spamming the trickery deck, I measure who is a threat to my victory and hinder them at best. Sure probably other Elyssia players spam the trickery deck but trickery cards aren't strong enough to nuke the board (unlike spells).

And here's where Ghor players come in. As I said, I tried the only strategy as Ghor that I found efficient for him and you had the results... Walking from patch to patch I constantly nuked the opposition while getting all my quests done half way in. Rest of the game? More nukes. Sorry to say but anybody that doesn't draw from spell deck only as Ghor is playing him wrong because his full potential IS ONLY THE SPELL DECK.

TL;DR: Ghor is a character that can survive and win just by burning through a single deck of cards nearly for free.

[Redpaws]

Give Ghor his Stealth back. As for his Talent:
a) change his power to "-1 magic discount when standing in ANY forest.
OR
b) at the start of his turn, if Ghor is in a forest, he gains magic points equal to the number of forests connected. (IE one forest = 1 MP, 4 chained forests = 4 MP. Etc etc.)

I like this idea. Though I think he should be...
Ghor regains stealth, and gains 1 magic discount when in a forest. (Same effect as Apprentice)
No more adjacent forest bonus, but can still cast to any forest while in one.
Then ONE of these...
While in a forest;
A; Gain 2 shield while defending
B; Gain 1-2 shield and never retreat while defending
C; Gain mana (1-2? Or for every forest connected + the one you occupy like Dragon suggested) at the start of your turn
D; Gain Scout of every forest on the map, with the current sparkling particle effect showing when Ghor has vision. (Will look real pretty at night!)
Or something else!

These all work thematicly, with Ghor being able to either 'take roots' for increased defense, absorb magic power from the forest, or sense 'invaders' while connected with good ol' mother nature. It also reduces the whole insane "spam spells for free" issue, and makes single-tile forests actually useful.

[Teii]

makes single-tile forests actually useful.

This is something Ghor shouldn't have though.  Forest tiles are too common and risk-free for every single forest tile to give Ghor a bonus for simply walking into it.  If you look at every other tile based power, you'll notice that none of them make every single settlement or dungeon always useful, and they have weaker effects than reducing card costs.  If a power is easy and resource free to trigger, it needs to be relatively weak. 

[Echo]

I have returned to the game and still sad to see that Ghor is still a major c**t.

I'm not going to sugar coat it, Ghor is the only element in this game that makes me hate it. He's still an effortless troll character that has no other purpose but to ruin the game.

Nerf. Him. Down.

I literally took a 2 month break to get away from the frustration of this character's existence only to return and see I should put the game back on hold.

[Darcy Smith]

Hey there Echo,

Not entirely sure what you're talking about, he got nerfed big time. In fact most people are requesting a buff for him at this stage.

Also cool it. You can express your feelings on a topic without coming in so hot.


Cheers,

<3 Darcy

[InariFox]

Hey there Echo,

Not entirely sure what you're talking about, he got nerfed big time. In fact most people are requesting a buff for him at this stage.

Also cool it. You can express your feelings on a topic without coming in so hot.


Cheers,

<3 Darcy

Ghor just has a weird starting stat that is underwhelming to alot of people and low starting gold along with his lack of stealth which was the biggest shocker to a few people. He's a cool character but he's really weak off the start but really strong if you pump wits and fight and do all quests and sadly a huge target the entire game.

[Teii]

Hey there Echo,

Not entirely sure what you're talking about, he got nerfed big time. In fact most people are requesting a buff for him at this stage.

Also cool it. You can express your feelings on a topic without coming in so hot.


Cheers,

<3 Darcy

Echo isn't entirely wrong.  The spell deck already has the most powerful effects in the game with almost no counters, so a hero that has the potential to easily use spells without running out of magic is going to be busted.  The lack of stealth and losing 1 point of cost reduction doesn't prevent his power from ruining the experience of the other players in the game.   A hero can be weak in a general sense, but still have one overpowered niche that makes him no fun to play against.   If Ghor was actually played more, I think we would see a lot more people agree with Echo. 

I seem to be one of the few people who thinks removing stealth was logical decision, but I still don't believe it was a great solution.  I think most of the more experienced players will say that Ghor's power should be reworked regardless of what his current win rate might be.   Large and easy magic cost reduction seems to be a design choice that you guys at LoG aren't willing to compromise, and I respect that.  I think most players would be fine with Ghor's power so long as he can run out of magic even while abusing forests.   I thought of a change to Ghor's power that I think would be a compromise between what LoG and the community want. 

I get the feeling that you guys aren't really looking to change his power again, but I still want to put this out there.   Conduit- While on a forest tile, spells cost 1 less magic per current and adjacent forest and spell range is zero.  Ghor can easily and cheaply buff himself with spells, but he loses the ability to cheaply and repeatedly affect the board.  He can still use and cycle more overall spells than anybody else, but he has a harder time directly hindering others with spells to compensate.   Getting value from buffs is more time-sensitive than offensive cards, so it encourages smarter play as opposed to spamming.  It further distinguishes Ghor and Sana because Sana becomes significantly better at using offensive spells than Ghor.  Turret Ghor gets hurt more than his current power.    It's also an easier change to implement and understand compared to suggestions I see often, like temporarily sapping forests of energy after casting spells.  The issues I see with the idea are that he could still mill the spell deck effortlessly, and there are probably some arguments for zero spell range being too harsh and/or just bad design.  Thoughts?

[Echo]

I agree I have a very strong and displeasing opinion on Ghor, but I'm sticking to it for the following reasons.

I tried Ghor post nerf and it's a joke how powerful he is. Let me tell you it's not good to be on the receiving end of this character when you face someone who knows how to abuse him. I guess the issue is nobody points it out to the LoG team how to abuse Ghor, so here's my detailed walkthrough. I got it right the very first time I played Ghor so take my word from first hand experience, he is over powered.

How to abuse Ghor to near godlike levels:

Basics:
- Buff wits and health / fight. Wits is most important here so take quests for that.
- If your starting hand contains items, equip whatever you got, everything else burn away.
- Draw from spell deck non-stop, keep playing all the cards you draw regardless of effect.
- Be sure you stand in a 3-4 patch of forests.
- 4 patch is your base of operations, you dont need to worry about reaching your quests, Haste and Teleport (occasionally Banish) will do that for you.
- The spell deck is full of nukes, with high Wits you can easily eliminate a player 5 times over if lucky enough, so that leaves you with enough fuel to kill your opponents in a single turn.
- If your opponents aren't smart enough, they will neglect you as a threat and still go at each others' throats. This is a guaranteed win.

Maths:
- Majority of spells cost 1-3 points.
- Anything below 3 points is free for you, use them.
- With a 3 patch you can last long enough until recharge.
- With a 4 patch you're dishing out spells effortlessly for free.
- Few spells cost 4 to 6, but these are rare use ones that will be situational. See spell specific instructions.

Spells guide:
- Use Haste and Teleport to get to your quests. You can finish all 4 half way in if done right.
- Save Banish when you have a quest opposite end of the map, otherwise use it to deter a direct threat.
- Use buffs immediately, no questions asked. Exception to this rule is Focus.
- Use Focus before night fall for a bonus spell point boost. You'll see great use for it.
- If you have an opponent with low health, dish out whatever damaging spell you have to finish them off.
- If you have a stack of damaging spells, utilize them on the nearest opponent, he's your greatest threat.
- Crystallize is probably the only spell card in the deck that is hardly worth using unless you are 100% you want to go for stones... but you likely wont, see next rule.
- Utilize rot cards, don't worry about corruption, the sooner you're corrupted, the less threatening Banes are to you.
- Speaking of rot, Cleansing Wyld is useless for you. Use it on the nearest guard, don't do other players a favor.
- Lightning Strike is probably the only card you may want to use as a trap rather than direct it at a player. (unless you are forced to defend yourself form imminent attack). If you know where someone's quest is, drop it on their tile. Fortify it with cursed lands as much as possible.
- Spirit Strike is the only spell you want to use outside the forest, because as many seem to forget, it uses the spell points you have minus any discounts (Apprentice). So if you are in a patch of 3 with 4 spell points you will deal only 2 damage because of the 2 neighboring forests giving a discount.
- Rage Quit is probably the worst spell you can play, it's a combination of 2 spells. Here's how to do it:
1. Wait for morning, have a Wall of Thorns ready.
2. Check the player you want to screw up (preferably one that didn't take their turn yet).
3. Check the dungeon furthest from him (you know where this is going).
4. Cast Wall of Thorns on that dungeon.
5. Banish the target.
6. Watch the rage unfold.

With this strategy, Ghor is a powerhouse of spells that has little to no weaknesses. Test it with this method. If this isn't convincing enough, well I got no arguments left as to why this character is OP. If anything it will force me to record 10 play sessions and show it off from my perspective how this strategy breaks the game.

PS: What is Ghor in:
- FPS: That camper in the dark corner with 1 hit kill weapon (AWP).
- Fighting: That kid that spams the same ranged attack from the other end of the screen until you drop dead.
- RPG: That character that stun locks you till you drop dead.
- RTS: Turtle.
- Board games: We'll just remove this one character from play just to keep the game balanced (and not because he's weak).

[Kletian999]

I agree with Teii.  It's too gamebreaking for Ghor to routinely cast spells for 0.  Even if he doesn't win his ability to kingmake far outsteps any other player.  Giving him other downsides like no stealth may have gotten his numbers closer to normal, but I think it is mere coincidence based on who decided to bail playing him.  If his power was capped so it never reduced cost below 1, it'd make a world of difference.   If his power became less effective the more it was used in turn instead that would be better as well.  Heck I'd even prefer if he only got cost reduction if the TARGET of the spell was a forest hex.

Compare Ghor to Amber, she has 1 less body, a lot more start gold, and 1 more wits.  Her power is quite subtle, potentially never awarding anything the whole game.  Despite this, she is viable for all victory paths.  Take Ghor, if he got an early gold dungeon windfall he could play the exact same game as an Amber never using his power.   In short, Ghor would not be underpowered even if he could barely use his ability or if his ability was much weaker than cost reduction.  Maybe if he only got reduction on a 3 forest or higher (bump the nerf up 1 more point) you could give him stealth back and we'd be good.

[InariFox]

I'm still upset about the nerf but there's nothing I can really do about it but to just force myself and live with the nerf.
Darcy did hint that there could be a possible change with Ghor or a card to grow forests to alter the board in a recent stream.
When 1.7 and bandits come out, I'll pretty much give up on playing Ghor  and finally get to play the bandits.
Really sucks that this adorable hero had such a troubled/hated history.
I really enjoyed this hero but it was fun while it lasted. 

[Echo]

I'm still upset about the nerf but there's nothing I can really do about it but to just force myself and live with the nerf.
Darcy did hint that there could be a possible change with Ghor or a card to grow forests to alter the board in a recent stream.
When 1.7 and bandits come out, I'll pretty much give up on playing Ghor  and finally get to play the bandits.
Really sucks that this adorable hero had such a troubled/hated history.
I really enjoyed this hero but it was fun while it lasted. 

Inari, I will be honest, I can understand you're upset with the whole Ghor story and now the new Arson card coming, but sadly we need to agree on one thing... 3 magic discount is not balanced. I tried Ghor myself for the first time and it was just a joke how overpowered he is with high wits and a patch of 4 forests.

Sure, I guess you're one of the select few that didn't abuse Ghor's power, but me personally I've seen too many trolls abuse Ghor's power to the level that I got this permanent hate on this character.

I swear if Ghor's hero power was 1 magic discount and 1 shield in forests, I would be happy with that and say that is balanced. Even give his stealth back for all I care. But having 3 magic discount? The spell deck is the most powerful deck as it stands with devastating spells:

Spirit Strike: Instant kill with high Spirit.
Immolation:  3 health damage at most.
Lightning Strike: 3 health damage and possibly the most devastating peril.
Blizzard: 2 health damage and huge hindering.
Aflame: 2 health damage.
Moonbite: 2 health damage at most.
Tanglewine: 1 health damage and hinder.
Wake the Trees: Hinder and lose cards.

And those are just the damaging spells, the buff spells give a huge edge as well.

Compare that with Item cards and Trickery COMBINED:
Throwing Axe: 2 health damage.
Mercenaries: 2 health damage and hinder.
Sharpshooter: 2 health damage at most.
Hidden Trap: 1 health damage and hinder
Crooks: Lose 2 gold or Hidden Trap happens
Welcoming Party: Huge hinder.

The Spell deck alone could compete with the Item and Trickery deck combined and with that said, Ghor under the right circumstances can pretty much nuke the board at the cost of 0 spell points.

But anyway, that Arson card now sorts out my issue with Ghor... until they introduce a new spell card that changes swamp tiles to forests... then this thread will be resurrected (provided Ghor's hero power doesn't get reworked).