Author Topic: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan  (Read 17447 times)

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Kobb

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2014, 09:39:56 AM »
I agree with the line of thought that seems to be going on here. Stealing items = potentially interesting, but stealing equipped items = probably OP due to equipping costs. I also really like the idea of a player drawing an acorn card as an item, due to the backstory connection.

A thought: what if Twiss' ability could mark one hero for burglary at a time? It lasts until that hero draws an item card, which would come up as an acorn (essentially wasting their card draw). Twiss could then either receive gold for the pawn (equip cost? or just 1g?), or perhaps the lost card would be considered quite enough of an advantage. Then she would be free to tag another (or the same) hero again.

It could make for some interesting second-guessing if someone else in your game is playing Twiss. Do you play it safe and draw only non-item cards? Or do you risk it because (hopefully) they are that valuable to have? And as Twiss, how do your play your enemies so that they feel like they can risk drawing items? You could try to screw over one particular character, but at some point he's going to stop drawing items and your "mark" will get stuck on him, possibly for the rest of the game. (perhaps making the theft have a chance of failure would free things up a little for both sides?)

Vryl

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2014, 10:05:28 AM »
One problem with the 'steal item cards' concept is that presumably, a lot of players will try to draw equipment early on and then focus on either treachery or magic once they have some decent equipment.  That means that if Twiss is going to get any real use out of fiddling with draws, she'll either have to effect more than items (which doesn't make sense) or have a pretty major effect from the start, delaying other heroes to make up for the fact that her Hero Power essentially goes away after the first five or six rounds.

Laughing Lick

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2014, 02:53:12 AM »
Reading the responses already posted gave me an idea of a slight variation that plays with the mechanics already used in the game.

Say she has to be adjacent to a hero for it to work. She can steal an unequipped item from that player but perhaps she doesn't know what they have- or only knows that they have items and not what they do. Once she chooses to activate the ability she can see their items and choose to try and steal one. Maybe she can sense how rare their items are- it could be done many ways.

However in order to steal an item she needs to roll correct dice (similar to perils) equal to the number of gold it costs to equip the item- the rarer and more expensive the item is, the more dice she needs to roll correctly to steal it. If she's successful she puts the card in her hand- or maybe she gets to equip it for a lesser cost if she equips it straight away. The player has their card replaced with an acorn. Acorn can perhaps be used to heal one health for free, or at least it can be burnt in combat so it's not stuck in their hand. A crazier version would be it can be used to turn a plains into a forest even.

Playing of that last idea- seeing as stealth would be important in sneaking up on people, what if when Twiss draws cards she has a chance of drawing an acorn herself. She could use it to create a forest, or a temporary (single turn even) forest, so that she can move more stealthily. She can also use the acorn card on an opponent which is how she activates her thieving ability. Maybe she has a higher chance of drawing an Acorn card if she's standing on a forest. It would make sense for it to be either in the Treasure or Trickery piles I think... perhaps both.

Anyway that's what I've come up with so far- keep brainstorming!
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8BitProxy

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2014, 10:29:37 AM »
I dont have much of an opinion other then whats been said on stealing equipment and such however i like your 'mark for burglary' idea Kobb :)

Ty Carey

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2014, 10:33:29 AM »
Some amazing ideas coming out here, everyone! They're definitely considered when we're formulating our own design so keep up the good work!

JimMaru

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2014, 06:30:53 PM »
I feel like it would be funny if every time she fought someone without dying she had a chance to get some (or if very lucky all) of the gold from the other player.
Then next time the player affected tried to use any or all money he'd get the message "Oh, no! It seems like you lost some of your money somewhere! Better be careful next time."
And then the acorn icon would show up hinting as to what must have happened.

I don't like the idea of her stealing cards because, well, most probably she will already have high wit's. What's the deal with her having 7~8 cards that way?
Also some characters with low wits need every card they can savage.

Laughing Lick

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2014, 06:49:40 PM »
I feel like it would be funny if every time she fought someone without dying she had a chance to get some (or if very lucky all) of the gold from the other player.
Then next time the player affected tried to use any or all money he'd get the message "Oh, no! It seems like you lost some of your money somewhere! Better be careful next time."
And then the acorn icon would show up hinting as to what must have happened.

I don't like the idea of her stealing cards because, well, most probably she will already have high wit's. What's the deal with her having 7~8 cards that way?
Also some characters with low wits need every card they can savage.

I dunno- while playing the game I've found myself often trying to get rid of cards I don't want- especially if I didn't get to have that many in my hand. If I have an equipment lying in my hand it's usually because I'm wanting to get rid of it. Unless I can't afford it but honestly it's more often I don't want it. Then again when there are more cards the meta might change.
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JimMaru

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2014, 01:26:08 AM »
You get a full hand next turn. Cards are always useful since you can just burn them for extra dice in fights.
Maybe you might want to get rid of them, but I can see you playing as Thane and wishing you had better cards to face the perils of the castle.
Maybe it might not be as problematic as I think, I definitely liked the Acorn card on next draw idea though.

Laughing Lick

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2014, 03:11:00 AM »
Mm you get a full hand and if you've still got equipment when you're drawing- most of the time anyway- it's because you wish you'd had a chance to burn them. Cards are always useful but I don't think having one card burgled from your hand- especially if it was replaced with maybe even an acorn with a symbol matching the card that was stolen, so you can still burn it exactly the same then. It could be instantly replaced with an acorn so the player hasn't lost any ability to burn the card.

I mean if you're waiting for just one more gold so you can equip a really cool card it would suck if it was stolen yes, but if everyone knows she has that ability- and in the case of her needing to be next to them- then they can take steps to try and move away from her when they draw the card and notice her close to them. Or they could attack her and try and kill her before she gets the chance. It's really not something that should surprise people out of nowhere- not unless the Twiss player is really really good at stealthin it up lol.
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Xiander

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2014, 03:15:34 AM »
I'm going to just think aloud here for a moment. Excuse me if I ramble a bit or repeat stuff that has already been mentioned. There is a madness to my method  ;)

Most of us agree that Twiss, beeing a thief, should be able to steal stuff (Maybe al of us, i'm not sure). So I am going to name all the things she could possibly steal, and all the ways she could go about it mechanically.


Resourses
I use the word resourses as a coverall for Gold, Magic, Prestige and Rot. Three of these are rather ephemeral things, which it does not make a lot of sense to steal. So that leaves Gold...
It makes a ton of sense for Twiss to be able  to steal Gold, but I find it a bit boring gameplay-wise. From what I have seen of the game this far, Gold seems to be rather easy to come by. Further loosing a bit of gold isn't such a big deal in the long run.

If Twiss is going to be picking coins out ofour pockets, theres a few ways i could see her go about it:
1) She could simply have the ability to chose a hero to loose gold, and then gain that much gold herself.
2) It could be a passive ability, triggered when she fought someone, no matter if she won or lost.
3) Still passive, but triggered by something else. Forexample claiming someone elses settlement, or just moving into a square next to them might do it.

Cards
Stealing cards seems more powerful to me than stealing resourses, and sinse this is supposed to be a powerful ability, that is a good thing. So how could Twiss go about stealing cards?

Glad you asked. List time:
1) Stealing randomly from opponents hand.
This is pretty straightforward. Pick an opponent. That opponent discards a random card, which you then put into your hand.
This is sort of a gamblers power. It suffers from being random, but then some people enjoy playing with chance. My biggest problem with it is the thematic problem of randomly stealing spells. Of course, there is nothing preventing the power from only taking item cards and fizzling if none are present... but that seems rather weak in power.

2) Stealing specific cards from opponents hand.
Same as above, except the Twiss player get's to choose what to steal. This has the added bonus of revealing the opponents hand. Again, this may have to target only items.


3) Stealing to pawn.
Like either of the two first posts on this list, except Twiss does not put the card into her hand. Instead the card is discarded and twiss gains some amount of Gold.


4) Stealing from the deck.
This could take one of two forms. Either Twiss could put acorns into the deck, giving opponents a chance to draw an acorn instead of an item. Or she could tag an oppont, making his next item draw an acorn.

I don't have a strong feel for the importance of cards, or how easy they are to replace , but neither of these options seem overpowered to me, as long as there is a limit to how often Twiss can pull it off.

Equipped Items

Here we get into really powerful territory. When you steal something another player has equipped, you know you are taking something they want to keep. I have more than one idea for how this could work.

1) Straight theft.
Simple as that, they loose an equipped item and you gain that item (Probably as a card). This can be random or you might get to pick.
To me, this seems like a problem ability, not because it is overly powerful, but because it's annoying to play against, and offers no real counterplay (And no way of reclaiming your stuff).

2) "Item surpression"
Instead of downright stealing an item, instead this version would replace the item with an acorn until some condition was met. The condition could be anything from paying Gold or Prestige to killing the squirrel who stole your stuff (Or her dying on her own, for slightly less power).
This is probably my personal favorite. It gives real power to twiss, but still offers counterplays and might make the squirrel a target if she doesn't watch out.




Right, this ended up being more of a summary of the thread, with my commentary. I might add that all the suggestion could be modified, by requiring Twiss to be within range, having a price in gold or prestice or something else.

Okay, thoughts? Did I miss something? What is your favotite? Any new suggestions?


In the interest of not putting anyone off their appetites... I hid the bodies elsewhere.


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Laughing Lick

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2014, 03:36:00 AM »
To put the stealing of items- equip or otherwise into perspective a little, the card Cat Burglar costs 3 gold. For three gold you can steal another characters equipped item- or rather steal one at random. If Twiss has to do anything extra than play a card- or if they get an acorn in return and the acorn is still useful in some way, then it can hardly be too powerful within that context. Especially not if it required an action point in some way- which honestly feel like one of the most precious resources.
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Vryl

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2014, 05:46:39 AM »
To put the stealing of items- equip or otherwise into perspective a little, the card Cat Burglar costs 3 gold. For three gold you can steal another characters equipped item- or rather steal one at random. If Twiss has to do anything extra than play a card- or if they get an acorn in return and the acorn is still useful in some way, then it can hardly be too powerful within that context. Especially not if it required an action point in some way- which honestly feel like one of the most precious resources.

I saw that myself.  The Cat Burglar was also a trickery peril 4, unless I'm mistaken... and, being treachery, infinite range.  Letting Twiss do that every turn may still be overpowered, but something like every other turn for the same price shouldn't be OP at all.  Not when other heroes get their own Hero Powers to balance against that.

Twiss could regain her 'steal' use every night, for instance.  She can either use it immediately or the next day, but if she doesn't use it then, she's lost the opportunity.  She may not be able to afford using it as often as it becomes available, but then again there's always quests and other random happenings that might keep her wealthy enough to activate it most days.

Blake Mizzi

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2014, 02:44:39 PM »
Wow some awesome ideas!

I won't say who or what but someone has already mentioned our preliminary idea for Twiss' Hero Power! It's not locked in stone of course, if we see an idea here we really love or haven't thought of chances are it'll go in game!

As a general rule of thumb for Hero Powers right now we're keeping them passive and not requiring any extra UI buttons or actions from the player, and they're all unique, so there won't be another Card, Signet Ring or Amulet with the exact same ability, and usually the Hero power is the extreme version of that system, but of course like someone mentioned Cat Burglar is pretty OP if was used every turn, it'll be a fairly rare card in the final Deck. Great ideas everyone! And as we mentioned if you think up a better idea than we have already penciled for a Hero, good chance we'll put that in game :) One BIG reason we haven't revealed any Hero Powers yet is we wanted to see everyone's ideas first and you've got some amazing ideas, keep them coming!!!

Arkofleight

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2014, 06:06:00 AM »
I'd say a range limit over a prestige cost (Being unable to steal things because you're not famous enough? What?) but I would add the caveat to the ability that tracking her down and murderising her gets it back.
Say, two hexes of range, pick the item, doesn't show until you or they get into a situation where the item would take effect whereupon they find an acorn instead, either one per other hero or one stolen per 'life'.  Only items, not followers, not cards in hand.
You  COULD spend the rest of the game chasing her down to get that moon scythe back (and if it's good enough, you probably will) but that's a decision you make.
If you wanted to make the ability even more 'balanced by people trying to murder you', you could have it be one item at a time that ANYONE can grab by downing her. Sure, you just got a moon scythe, but now everyone wants your blood.

Hobbes

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Re: Introducing Twiss, Little Lightpaw of the Bandit Clan
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2015, 12:30:53 PM »
Been reading this thread with interest and pouring over various games (tabletop ones) for similar theft mechanics. I think I've struck upon a possible idea:

Twiss : Twiss may spend 1 gold, 1 spirit, 1 prestige to steal from an adjacent hero's hand, taking a card of her choice and replacing it with an acorn card. Each hero may be only stolen from once over the duration of the game.

Effect : This limits twiss to three thefts, one per player. It's powerful enough that it could in theory seriously throw the plans of a player out, or take a prized card from their hand, but it's not powerful enough that it could be abused to the extent of crippling a single player. Cumulatively, three thefts where Twiss gets to -choose- what she takes, that will add up quite nicely.