Author Topic: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System  (Read 27565 times)

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dragoncrescent

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2017, 08:59:14 AM »
I'm excited for them! It seems like from the promo art that Amber may be getting something cool, which I'm all for! Also, can't wait to see whether we're getting some new cards...

As for the price, it's actually about par for the price of cosmetic items. I mean, you look at Heroes of the Storm, and their $7 ~ $14 skins. The only game where cosmetics flow like wine are DotA and TF2, both of which are backed directly by Steam. I mean, they're vanity  items - something not necessary for you to thrive and win a game. I'm vaguely reminded of a comic some artist on dA did once about the common complaint "You should lower your commission prices!" The response was basically along the lines of 'Well, this is what I do for a living. I need to eat too, and hey - feel free not to buy if you can't agree to the prices. It's not like groceries, or some necessity - art is a luxury item."

Cinix

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2017, 09:24:34 AM »
I'm excited for them! It seems like from the promo art that Amber may be getting something cool, which I'm all for! Also, can't wait to see whether we're getting some new cards...

As for the price, it's actually about par for the price of cosmetic items. I mean, you look at Heroes of the Storm, and their $7 ~ $14 skins. The only game where cosmetics flow like wine are DotA and TF2, both of which are backed directly by Steam. I mean, they're vanity  items - something not necessary for you to thrive and win a game. I'm vaguely reminded of a comic some artist on dA did once about the common complaint "You should lower your commission prices!" The response was basically along the lines of 'Well, this is what I do for a living. I need to eat too, and hey - feel free not to buy if you can't agree to the prices. It's not like groceries, or some necessity - art is a luxury item."


Oh boy you brought the 'artists' into this. Sorry but especially regarding DA and other online art communities. Don't take their words. I've watched so many of them flounder and fail in person (yes I've know a number of them and I used to do art commissions on other sites. I understand the price game of art commissions very well) because they didn't budge on their price to adjust for their market and over charged customers. As for your game examples, they still feed of whales as they are higher in price do to the nature of the games. You don't BUY HotS you get to play it for free then pay for new additions or stuff in game. Their prices are higher because that is the ONLY source of income from the game.

That's all I'm saying on that. Back to the topic of Armello.

For the skins in Armello we're NOT asking for 0.99 skins, we're asking that for 4 skins you don't spend more then what it cost to get the game itself. That's what doesn't make sense.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 09:40:55 AM by Cinix »

SBF1

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2017, 09:49:53 AM »
I dunno if the commission thing is really the best comparison (and I say that as someone who understands and has commissioned people quite a number of times, eheh), but I'm still generally rolling with the majority on this one. Even in proper paid games, at least the ones I've played, skins/costumes/whatnot are still generally around that same price - the difference is that you paid something like 40 or 60 bucks for the base game instead of 20.

Take ESO, for instance. Single costumes in that can range either 500 monies or 1000 monies, and usually that means you'll buy 8 to 15 bucks worth of monies in order to afford it and have a little extra monies.  And that's just for an extra 3D costume; sure, it needs to fit and meld right with the various character-creation sliders, but that's about all it entails.

Armello's skins might only be a little cheaper than that, but consider this: it's an entirely new 3D model (I presume), an entirely new portrait for the character, and probably new battle sprites on top of that.  It's a lot more effort put into a skin compared to costumes in an MMO or whatnot, and it's cheaper than an MMO's costumes to boot, even if only a little.

All that said, I still stand by my initial remark; most people are probably just going to buy a skin for the character they primarily play (Thane, in my case), and that's it. It's not a case of telling people "oh, just ignore the other skins, it's okay!", it's a case of telling people "why would you buy a skin for a character you don't play?". I understand the tendency of some people to want to "collect" skins (especially the roleplaying type in MMOs, of course), but there comes a time where it's less about a price point and more about the ability to control yourself.

I'm not expecting that argument to convince anyone who's on the opposite end of this debate, considering most people get really uppity and antsy and snarky about this subject as a whole nowadays (and it's not unfounded, I know), but still. My two cents.

Cinix

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2017, 10:00:38 AM »
Armello's skins might only be a little cheaper than that, but consider this: it's an entirely new 3D model (I presume), an entirely new portrait for the character, and probably new battle sprites on top of that.  It's a lot more effort put into a skin compared to costumes in an MMO or whatnot, and it's cheaper than an MMO's costumes to boot, even if only a little.

All that said, I still stand by my initial remark; most people are probably just going to buy a skin for the character they primarily play (Thane, in my case), and that's it. It's not a case of telling people "oh, just ignore the other skins, it's okay!", it's a case of telling people "why would you buy a skin for a character you don't play?". I understand the tendency of some people to want to "collect" skins (especially the roleplaying type in MMOs, of course), but there comes a time where it's less about a price point and more about the ability to control yourself.

I'm not expecting that argument to convince anyone who's on the opposite end of this debate, considering most people get really uppity and antsy and snarky about this subject as a whole nowadays (and it's not unfounded, I know), but still. My two cents.


I actually agree with you and understand most people won't buy all of them. My personal recommendation is that each skin should be about 5 dollars.

HOWEVER:
As after re-reading (Even my own responses) I realized my original point got lost and even off track.
I can live with the prices on this as I'm sure most can (Personally I would've liked to see the Skins brought down to about 5 dollars each). I was speaking up more to draw attention and make sure eyes stay on prices and practices because I don't want LOG to start taking on too many of the bad AAA gaming practices. That's it, small instances like this are no big deal on their own, it's the collective direction I want LOG and the players who support the company to keep an eye on. That's all. That and dialog between creators and their audience is a good thing. If a creator only receives negative responses OR they only receive nothing but praise, then creators can fail/leave, things can stagnate or  bad practices happen. Sometimes a combination. Dialogs are important to get voices from more then one view point and make a company great by reading and learning from/considering multiple views from their audience.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 10:08:02 AM by Cinix »

SBF1

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2017, 10:14:25 AM »
Fair enough, hah. It's not the first time I've seen this sort of discussion get bogged down and derailed by accident. :v I agree on the price bit too - even though I said I'd probably buy Thane's skin, I think 4.99 would have been the ideal price point to make it the most appealing for everyone.

Cinix

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2017, 10:23:33 AM »
Fair enough, hah. It's not the first time I've seen this sort of discussion get bogged down and derailed by accident. :v I agree on the price bit too - even though I said I'd probably buy Thane's skin, I think 4.99 would have been the ideal price point to make it the most appealing for everyone.

Yup also at 4.99 it'd attract the attention of people who might normally pass it by. You increase the number of people who will purchase it. In addition at 4.99 you get people more willing to maybe pick up that extra skin for the character you don't main but you still enjoy.

Also glad to know it's happened before. The wonderful methods of derailment :P in this case the people jumping onto the extremes bandwagon. Reason my last response brought up that I was NOT talking about .99 skins :P
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 10:25:58 AM by Cinix »

Mcksalg

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2017, 10:30:28 PM »
Im  not a fan of cosmetic dlc, but I am a fan of Armello and support LoG. Gaming market has changed and this is what the new model is like so we have to deal. I just find it funny that a few years ago this sort of content would of been free unlockables. Times have changed thx to cost of living and mobile gaming market, so I get it still ppl don't have to like it. What I find interesting is that this is being introduced as a System so that implies there will be alot more, wonder what the final skin number will be for each hero.

Pietoro

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2017, 10:46:12 AM »
Barnaby is my main char so I'm only interested in his skin, really. I hope it's cool. :3

I won't be buying all of them so wev.


CrazyBob05

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2017, 12:02:14 PM »
This sounds awesome.  But I dunno'...  Did the Xbox One port even get the Art of Treason  update patch yet?
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Across-The-Board

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2017, 02:58:59 PM »
As a world-weary Team Fortress 2 player I look forward to my eventual glowing banana hat for Mercurio!

No but seriously, I look forward to these skins a lot. Sana with leaves in her hair looks so cute :)

Kletian999

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2017, 12:57:41 AM »
Since "supply" is infinite, demand will raise with lowered price until demand saturation.  LoG has done some math and predicted that 6.99 maximizes the Demand/Price function.  They might be wrong, especially when you consider it looks like 4 skins is going to cost more than 4 new heroes and 4 new rings.  I'd love to get their insights into how much they calculated.

Darcy Smith

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2017, 05:56:56 PM »
Hey folks, thank you for sharing your thoughts on our pricing. This sort of honest feedback is super helpful.

I just want to ask for clarification around why you feel that four hero skins shouldn't equate to more than the game itself? Is that just a gut feeling?

In terms of hero skins, they vary from game to game, typically starting at a few dollars and topping out at prices of $35(see DOTA 2). These are definitely a premium product constructed by world class artists, so we feel that the pricing is fair. Unfortunately I'm going to have to make the same argument that's been referenced already - these skins have no mechanical impact, and are purely visual.

On the other end of this transaction, it definitely doesn't feel like a "money grab". We're a profitable company and we're lucky enough to be in a situation to make more Armello content and maybe even kick off a new title in the future but I want to assure you that it's not all cigars and fur coats in the studio.

Remember that the free updates that we provide are only really free for you guys. They definitely aren't free for us! This way we can have a model where after buying the core game, you can experience a game made and maintained with love and every few months we'll shake things up and add some new rad stuff. If you're in a position to buy some extra trimmings that you so desire, that's great too!

Once again, I really appreciate the message you're sending through and thanks for taking the time to reach out. I hope you see where we are coming from!


Cheers,

<3 Darcy

Kletian999

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2017, 07:55:53 AM »
The best way I can explain it, is you've demonstrated a clear increase of "price per effort" in the eyes of the community.  This is not an inherently wrong thing to do, but this kind of reaction should be expected.

Is it possible it "cost more" to make these new skins (because of expensive artists) than it did to design, model, draw, code, and balance 4 new heroes out of whole cloth?  Perhaps, but some folk won't believe it.  Unlike physical goods where we can say "this statue was made out of marble instead of plaster" quality of construction is far more obscure in the digital realm.  This leads into two "paths of dissatisfaction"
1. People who don't understand/perceive the extra value of the "more expensive effort".  I can't tell the difference between a 60 fps game and a 30 fps game, or 1080p from 800p resolution for instance because my visual sense is very unrefined for example.
2. People who understand the reason for the extra price, but resent luxury.  They feel if you had just used your old artists or similar artists at the old price, you'd have something basically as good but cheaper.   They expect a new skin to cost X, and anything done to make it more expensive than X is a wasteful luxury.  A Car costs X; giving it 4 wheel drive makes it more expensive but in a way that's practical.  Giving a car mega speakers, gold hubcaps, and that hydrolic lifting I see in rap videos also makes a car more expensive, but in such a way that is frivelous and can actually anger the outside observer. 

This is a weird economic paradox.  People resent first class tickets and Opportunist fare for airlines, yet because airlines do so it allows in advance coach tickets to be cheaper.  Likewise by selling really expensive skins you can afford free future development. 

People would like the new looks.  People enjoy the sense of having everything.  When you create something "luxurious", unusually expensive to help cover the fact that "not everyone will want it", you upset the people "who want it, but not that much".

Bottom line, I think you underestimated demand and priced it away from sweet spot on the price/demand curve.

Mcksalg

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2017, 10:16:06 AM »
If this price point keeps more free content (cards and rings) coming then I am all for it, like I said not everyone has to buy it. I take it more like a badge of honor that we support you and enjoy your product.

Lynx

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Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2017, 11:23:33 AM »
Cards are planned microtransactions per the Kickstarter page :(