Author Topic: v1.5 Art of Treason, now live!  (Read 1823 times)

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Kletian999

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Re: v1.5 Art of Treason, now live!
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2016, 06:00:06 AM »
I see nothing wrong with a Thane+ warhammer dealing 4 damage to someone with 2 shields- he burned 2 cards and he should get 2 bonus damage worth of pierce out of it.  Wielding the Warhammer is usually a bad idea, so nerfing piercing just makes Thane LESS likely to use it.  If Special dice were too strong, than they could have been limited in quantity or have completely different effects rather than completely ruining the special dice mechanic.

Poison uses rolled swords instead of Rot after the burn, but that confluence of events is rarer than meeting the druids in a circle at night.   I wouldn't say Rot is dead in 1.5, since Trickeries were already bad for getting Rot (as silly as that sounds)- the items and spells are the same.  I do agree however that while the Mad King is a great mechanic, it should NOT be depleting the player's deck of perils.


Darcy Smith

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Re: v1.5 Art of Treason, now live!
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2016, 04:50:01 PM »
Here are a few reasons why we like the new system. For them to make sense it's important to note that the strength of special dice doesn't equal or equate it's benefits to the game. Also it's important to recognize that

1. The system is easier to learn.

Previously, pierces would filter to the front, but that's an exception to a rule. This wasn't a problem when pierce were the only special dice, as this was a fairly simple thing to understand. It would be unacceptable for poison dice to filter to the front so this rule became more complicated. Instead of the previous rule of  "special dice filter to the front",  now it would have to be "special dice have their own assigned priority". You could argue that three special dice is easy enough for players to learn and understand, which leads me into my second point.

2. Future-proofing the design.

Armello has been out for a little over a year, and if you go back and play v1.0, it looks like a tech demo. We're proud of the rate in which we update Armello and it doesn't look like we're slowing down at this rate. Currently there are three special dice but who's to say there won't be more? Why not five? Why not 10? It'd be massively clunky to say "pierce resolve first, but after X unless there is a Y because of Z"

I'm sure you can imagine how that could/will get super complicated.

3. Special dice are more situational, allowing for interesting decisions.

With your example of Thane with the Warhammer, now putting a buffer of swords between your burn/rolled stack needs to be considered more heavily. Thematically this is a little odd, but the outcome is an interesting decision. Do you equip the Warhammer because your opponents have so many shields that your pierces will break 'em anyway?


If your pierce dice doesn't break a shield, you're still doing damage and if your reflect dice doesn't actually reflect, it's likely you've taken zero damage. I will admit that Poison dice are in a little bit of a weird place right now and it'd be cool to see some massaging to make 'em more relevant. Then again, getting poisoned is mega brutal. I mean, a poison dice connecting essentially deals 1-4+ damage so maybe it's fine that it doesn't connect very regularly.


Hope this makes sense.


Cheers,

<3 Darcy


Kletian999

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Re: v1.5 Art of Treason, now live!
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2016, 02:04:51 AM »
1. Easy to Learn: While this would be very important in a physical game, I feel this point is not relevant when the game itself is positioning all the dice where they have to go.   By the time people are really thinking about what to wear they'll have learned some effects are first and some are last- whichever is most mechanically appropriate.  It isn't like anyone is going to "not benefit" from their special dice because they don't know what priority it has, in contrast too often people are not benefiting from un-prioritized dice.

2. Yeah you might have dozens of new dice ideas, but very few are going to interact in any meaningful way (the pierce cancels reflect, or attack cancels defense, is really all there ever will be).  Ultimately you would get "fast" "slow" and "normal" dice in regards to positioning (instead of static, burn, roll being the primary drivers)- within those categories things would resolve as they fell (so no complicated hierarchy required beyond that).  The "speed" of the special die can be included in the effect's tooltip and maybe a little up or down arrow alongside the background sword/shield/skull symbol of affected dice.

3. With Special dice so easily "wasted/blocked" they aren't situational, they are traps, especially with how gear has been modified to accommodate the static vs burn vs roll ordering.  The probability math of risk/reward doesn't stand against static benefits except for Iron Pike.

Iron Pike is the old longbow with an added chance for reflection on defense instead of pierce.  Getting an addition shield on top of a regular hit roll (by creating a reflection) when defending is worth the occasional time it doesn't happen, especially being so cheap.  Mainly because Reflection is almost never wasted since attacks outnumber defense.

New Longbow needs moon cards to work- problem being many of the moon cards are too nice to burn (most of the burn trash moon cards used to be in Trickery and were made into shields patches ago).  The rest of the time it is an empty gear slot.  Same with Pistols- used to be better than Bow because 2 swords happened reliably enough, but now is only better if you have 2 burnable suns in hand.  The old effects for these wasn't bad when Piercing was reliably first.  Alternatively, if it was "first 1/2 missing symbol burns" become hits then you'd have something great, but still not as great as the Silver Lance.

Chainmail changed to a burning effect is less of a nerf, but it's conflict with Magna is just messy, and the old effect is sorely missed.

Warhammer was a dubious card to wield before it started being "bad" for piercing builds.  Wielding it lowered your chances for defense, burns, and critical rolls.  Functionally it served the same effect as piercing- to raise the damage floor without increasing the damage ceiling.  Against all but the most super armored, the hammer will outperform an un-priority pierce, whereas the old pierce, even being activated by chance rolls, was worth it against all but the most un-armored.  It's not really a choice right now.

Darcy Smith

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Re: v1.5 Art of Treason, now live!
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2016, 11:55:26 AM »
Hey Kletian,

Quote
Easy to Learn: While this would be very important in a physical game, I feel this point is not relevant when the game itself is positioning all the dice where they have to go.

It's interesting that you feel this way. We disagree.

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It isn't like anyone is going to "not benefit" from their special dice because they don't know what priority it has, in contrast too often people are not benefiting from un-prioritized dice.

Every time a player doesn't benefit from special dice, their opponent benefits. This is fine.

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Yeah you might have dozens of new dice ideas, but very few are going to interact in any meaningful way

Objection your honour, conjecture.

Quote
Ultimately you would get "fast" "slow" and "normal" dice in regards to positioning (instead of static, burn, roll being the primary drivers)- within those categories things would resolve as they fell (so no complicated hierarchy required beyond that).  The "speed" of the special die can be included in the effect's tooltip and maybe a little up or down arrow alongside the background sword/shield/skull symbol of affected dice.

I mean, this is an obvious solution and we've considered it in great detail. We're trying to avoid creating more exceptions/rules in Armello, as it can already be overwhelming for some.

Quote
With Special dice so easily "wasted/blocked" they aren't situational, they are traps, especially with how gear has been modified to accommodate the static vs burn vs roll ordering.  The probability math of risk/reward doesn't stand against static benefits except for Iron Pike.

Once again we're talking about card strength. One piercing attack is more valuable than 10 normal attacks if your opponent has 10 shields, making it situational.


Your main concerns seem to stem from the strength of particular cards that interact with special dice, and that's a fair criticism. Longbow, for example, is probably too situational at the moment.

A portion of people are always going to disagree with every change that's made and it sucks to see you're part of that portion this time. To wrap this conversation up, we're talking about Armello here, so anything could happen in the future but we're happy with how things are.


Cheers,

<3 Darcy

Kletian999

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Re: v1.5 Art of Treason, now live!
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2016, 01:37:56 PM »
I really appreciate you talking this out with me.

1. Alright, knowing the minutia of dice priority might not be unimportant, but since no one has to do the arbitration, you can't deny it's less important.

2. If the wielder fails to benefit too much, they are going to stop wasting their gold wearing special gear (see the Poison Dagger).  Then No one benefits.

3. Conjecture perhaps, but Dice will either be attacking or defending.  They'll either cancel each other, ignore each other, or you are getting into some very weird potential interactions,  FAR more complex and harder to learn than dice priority.

4. Its an obvious solution because it's a good one.  Some dice will want to be fast, some dice will want to be slow, other dice... well honestly I can't think of an effect that wouldn't be better served fast or slow (because you either want it to be blocked or not).  In that regard maybe there's no such thing as a medium speed special dice needed.  Every special dice is a special new rule to remember.  If you are going to create a lot more, returning the dice speed rule will be a small addition that will ensure they are worth using.

5. No one is getting 10 shields without crazy shenanigans (a King losing a Rot battle, but then you probably have 10+hits), it's hard enough to 8+ hits.  Most times attack will outnumber shield ensuring that a pierce dice will underperform a plain static hit+ even if they didn't "miss" by landing outside the block range.

6. Well, the New longbow and pistols would be bad even with priority back.  Poison dagger might be passable with negative priority, but still probably under performs.  Hero shield and New Chainmail aren't going to get much better with priority because nothing makes reflections happen at the end naturally.  Iron pike would become as good as old longbow for attacking, which might be nice enough to bump it's cost to 3. 

7. Yes, a portion, and while game development is not a democracy (it's your game) I would think if 70% of the gaming population was against or neutral to the change, and only 30% or less actually liked it, it'd be worth changing back before it got too much inertia and influenced other changes like how Longbow, Pistols, and Chainmail were.

8.  Going back to Poison.  Yes it "could" do 1-4 damage, but if the target dies anyway it does 0. The victim decides how much AP they want to spend, so it does the amount of damage the victim wants to receive (you might help set up a death warp).  The damage becomes very healable if they have a Sap in hand, or they could cure it with Taster/Cleansing spell.   Maybe rather than "poison" binary status, poison dice left "charges" on the victim that get consumed with steps, so there would actually be value in hitting with more than 1 poison die.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 10:45:29 AM by Kletian999 »

Melphina

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Re: v1.5 Art of Treason, now live!
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2016, 04:30:47 AM »
Quote
It isn't like anyone is going to "not benefit" from their special dice because they don't know what priority it has, in contrast too often people are not benefiting from un-prioritized dice.



Every time a player doesn't benefit from special dice, their opponent benefits. This is fine.

This is very strange logic. If I equip a piece of armor, and it benefits my enemy more than it benefits me, then why am I equipping it in the first place? This is why static gains are way better than the current implementation of the special dice items. The only one I see any value in using now is the chainmail, barring Magna of course. The other pieces are far too situational because of the burn mechanic.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 04:33:10 AM by Melphina »

Kletian999

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Re: v1.5 Art of Treason, now live!
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2016, 11:50:14 AM »
Very good point Melph.  If something is going to be a tradeoff that bites me sometimes, the times it benefits me needs to be a lot better.

Darcy Smith

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Re: v1.5 Art of Treason, now live!
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2016, 05:07:56 PM »
That's fair. You've been heard and you know our position. It's possible that adjustments will come in the future but it's best not to expect it.


Cheers,

<3 Darcy

pentrep

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Re: v1.5 Art of Treason, now live!
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2016, 08:56:06 AM »
When do you guys plan to update PS4 to 1.5 and add the Kickstarter characters as DLC?

Kletian999

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Re: v1.5 Art of Treason, now live!
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2016, 01:04:02 PM »
Kickstarter DLC will be in around Spring 2017; likely PS4 1.5 will be before that, but I can't make promises on that for them.