Author Topic: A Modest Proposal for the Rework of Ghor's Power  (Read 1091 times)

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SurefireTactics

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A Modest Proposal for the Rework of Ghor's Power
« on: November 24, 2016, 07:14:19 AM »
Greetings everyone, I have already sent this proposal off to the LeagueofGeeks for them to review/discuss, however I would like to share the idea with others here on the LoG Forums (Decided against placing it on the steam forums as I believe the people here are much more pleasant to discuss Armello with.)

Since I do not wish to copypasta a large wall of text here, please click this Google Drive link to read through the proposal.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B657FxHYV21FYlZtVGwzX2o5Ync/view?usp=sharing

I'm happy to make this proposal public and I am keenly interested to know what others think. Tell me any thoughts/concerns you have regarding the idea!

Minasojo

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Re: A Modest Proposal for the Rework of Ghor's Power
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2016, 12:01:02 PM »
Read it through, and when I reflect on your proposal I am actually somewhat surprised that this idea was not the original implementation of Ghor that we ended up with.

In a way it reminds me much of Brun's Scarcaster ability but instead of spending Magic to gain Fight, your spending AP to gain Magic.  (With a bit stronger of a tactical edge too, Pros VS Cons - which is good, many Hero's abilities have that aspect)

I wonder if it actually crossed anyone's mind at LoG during the drawing board phase... but if it did - maybe they really wanted each Hero to be that much more unique and different from each-other..but that is just speculation.

My conclusion: I approve. Looks like alot of thought was put into it, so I hope it gains movement.

It looks/feels like it would be in-line with every other Hero's Power. Ghor might finally regain that lost reputation and feel like one of the gang, instead this strange outlier from the norm.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 07:59:22 PM by Minasojo »

Kletian999

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Re: A Modest Proposal for the Rework of Ghor's Power
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2016, 06:47:24 AM »
Hey now, Steam aint all bad.  I can't think of anyone there that would hate on your idea.

As we discussed in chat, it's definitely a fair way to reduce the power while
still giving it the potential to greatly reduce a spell's cost
requiring Ghor to move instead of camping
requiring thought in which cards are cast and when.

Kletian999

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Re: A Modest Proposal for the Rework of Ghor's Power
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2016, 11:58:10 AM »
In the mean time, I've decided to RESUME playing as Ghor.  The community at large will see just how Ghor is when he's played to the fullest, until there is no disagreement what should be done.

Game 1:
Victory, both actual and moral.  The moral victory being I convinced everyone to LEAVE by the time the king had 5 health.  I just played the game, no chat spam, tight turns taken.  I was the perfect gentleman.  Magna left after an early Spirit Strike 1HKO.  Brun got upset after I Banished from across the board to approach him, plagued him, and then attacked with over 10 HP thanks to constant Barkskin.  With Mercurio all alone, he left after a Tanglevine out of stealth/Aflame combo.  Could have waited out the prestige, but eventually opted for a kingslay.


Phlox

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Re: A Modest Proposal for the Rework of Ghor's Power
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2016, 05:33:30 PM »
That's why Ghor doesn't see very much play lately. If you choose to play him you could have chosen to play a singleplayer game in the first place. If you play him so that none of the other players won't leave you have to play him badly and not to his fullest potential.
I don't understand we still discuss him. There have been so many complaints about broken games and so many suggestions to fix him (and I support this threads proposal)  I can't believe the Devs won't realize somethings wrong with him and how to repair him. So.: Darcy, Trent, Lisy, whoever reads this: Listen to our prayers and start acting. Pleeeeease!
I've been manipulated by a pychotic rabbit!

Kletian999

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Re: A Modest Proposal for the Rework of Ghor's Power
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2016, 12:59:01 AM »
My 2nd game was thwarted by our very own Surefire.  I spent so much energy stopping him a River was able to Hot Rot spirit Stone on her quested gate when I was going to kill king once my turn happened.  Might have been prevented if the Mercurio had attacked River instead of trying and failing to open another gate, but who's going to listen to the Prestige Leader and In progress King assassin?

Minasojo

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Re: A Modest Proposal for the Rework of Ghor's Power
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2016, 04:44:36 PM »
I just defeated a Ghor but its was a bloody nail-biting frustrating ordeal for 3/4ths the game.

Fighting/Questing Ghor decided he was going to win via Prestige, admittedly he did so smartly managing to lockdown the board with obstacles, gaining a un-contestable equip set, Fight, and Prestige.

He had the whole board perfectly in his control - except he left alone not one but two Spirit Stones he could've picked up if he'd not pursue'd some other objective.

Player on the opposite end of the board broke Palace while Ghor suppressed both Magna and Sana with his plays, I sat within my Clan Grounds with 2x Banish, 2 HRW, and Grand Heist in my hand... I waited, waited, waited, poking in and out of Clan Grounds seemingly having given up (and him STILL playing perils outside my Clan) - until I had my opening - Banish-Self, Move/Swamp, Move/Swamp, Move/Palace, Laugh, Threaten Ghor, HRW + Spirit Stone victory at Kings Last Health.

Ghor is freaking stressful to play against but MAN did I ever feel  8) to deny victory to an overconfident Ghor.

Edit: Point of the story being, I don't really see any other Hero able to spend cards as fast as he/she draws them like Ghor can - there is always a flow activity coming from him. Even the chunks of accumulated Rot he gained were swiftly washed away...every Card played, in some way or another, benefits the caster when played right, and the rest of the Hero's just can't keep up with stuff like that.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 11:30:51 AM by Minasojo »

Teii

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Re: A Modest Proposal for the Rework of Ghor's Power
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2016, 08:45:20 PM »
I don't see an issue with the idea, but I feel the need to argue in favor of magic refunding over magic cost reduction.  The major reason is to make Ghor's spell potential more readable.  If his power is refunding magic up to the spell's cost, other players can see how much magic he has and more consistently play around it.  "Ghor has 2 magic left, so he can't banish me out of the palace easily.  I'll make my move on the king now."  You can't really make those kind of decisions as often when he has cost reduction.  Ghor would have to be unable to walk into 2 forest tiles to punish him for wasting his magic in the same way.  Refunding would function the same as cost reduction in most situations, but it punishes poor resource management more. 

SurefireTactics

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Re: A Modest Proposal for the Rework of Ghor's Power
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2016, 06:08:14 AM »
I don't see an issue with the idea, but I feel the need to argue in favor of magic refunding over magic cost reduction. 
Teii, can you please elaborate what you mean when you say "refunding magic?" I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say for certain, and I would greatly appreciate more discussion on this. If what you mean is Ghor gains +1 magic for entered forests, then the magic you gain from the refunds would potentially be voided by the Day/night transitions resetting your magic counts whereas a pocket charge would remain until your next spell. Not to mention that a pocket charge protects Ghor better from stuff like the King's Declaration "Tribute of Spirit" and "Witch Hunters" from stripping him of magic.

In terms of short term goals and isolated incidents, a +1 magic increase and a -1 cost would be the same in a lot of ways. If you wanted to play Feral for 1 magic, just walk into a forest and bam. However, over the long term of the game, the reductions are more valuable as they promote the idea of a proper "Order of operations" for spells since you can bring the reductions into night turns and makes the reduction itself a resource for players to manage that can be used intelligently or... not. I don't personally believe that giving extra magic outright would punish poor planning more since when other characters like Sana pull incredible magic counts, you often times either use it to dump cards in your hand you don't want/need or end up not using it because you can't at all. A Ghor with Cost reductions that is trying to save up for said reductions, wont be playing spells at all in the meantime, which gives players breathing room before the storm (lightning strike lol) hits.

As for the readability of the power, you got me there on that one. Observer mentioned that Ghor, with this idea, should have a visualization like with Sylas and his kill counters to show how much of a reduction he has at that moment in time. So for all intents and purposes it would just be (Ghor's Magic + Whatever visualization = His Spellcasting ability,) which isn't that bad, but still requires some attention I suppose.

Teii

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Re: A Modest Proposal for the Rework of Ghor's Power
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2016, 10:45:02 AM »
I would be happy to elaborate.  I mean to simply take your proposal and replace every instance of cost reduction with refunding magic.  Ghor would walk into a forest tile and store a charge that will give him 1 magic back after he casts his first spell.  His power would still stack and persist between turns, but he could only gain as much magic as he spends.  No spending 1 magic to gain 4.  The goal is to ensure that his effective magic for casting a single spell will never go beyond 4 unless he uses the same means other heroes use to acquire magic. 

I don't think spell ordering would change in most situations, but it's hard for me to say without actually trying both myself.  The major difference refunding would make is in non-ideal situations.  If you have to cast a 2 or 3 cost spell without your power, you're limited to 2 or 1 cost magic spells unless you use a ring, moon juice, wyld born or roll a dungeon.  Ghor also wouldn't be able to save up for a free lightning strike / crystallize or even cast them easily at all.  That's why I say it would be more punishing and by extension more fun to play against and satisfying to use.

When I said 'readable' I meant more like looking at his magic and being able to predict what he might cast.  We'd still probably want some visual indicator with my suggestion, but I don't feel it would be as necessary.  While seeing that Ghor can walk into 2 forests and cast a 3 magic lightning strike isn't necessarily difficult, I feel taking that into account is still considerably more thought than Ghor would have to put in himself.  However, I'm not sure how you would display refunding to Ghor himself.  Presumably, you'd want it on the cards themselves.  A Sylas-esque indicator as you suggest could work just as well.