Author Topic: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement  (Read 28078 times)

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Sekhmes

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2016, 12:12:15 PM »
So, I'm a noob, I have very little time logged on game relative to probably everyone in here. 

Given the new system, I'm having a very difficult time wrapping my head around how Reflect dice are in any way balanced with other special dice.  I can see how the new system will enable many more builds and make some existing items more useful, but I'm also seeing some of the pitfalls.

Particularly, I'm having trouble imagining situations where full tank Barnaby and particularly Magna don't just dominate everything, for reasons mentioned by Kletian999, but also because Barns can be difficult to take down without special nonsense.

I like the idea, I see where it's going.  But of "special" dice, it just seems there are no downsides to reflect dice ever, whereas pierce and poison have the notable downside of not working at all.  Even if you don't use all your defensive dice, you are still surviving.  Burning shield cards and carrying armor is always useful, if not ideal.  But having to burn swords "correctly" is a high skill cap vs a zero brain required decision.

Just my thoughts.

Kletian999

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2016, 01:15:23 PM »
Precisely Sekhmes.  This is precisely what I am rallying against.

Biologist

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2016, 01:39:57 PM »
My first game as Thane under the new rules saw me get the Royal Banner and the Hand Cannons as my first two items. I eventually rounded out my gear with Chainmail. That particular setup worked really well, since there was a Tank Baranaby in that game, and I needed the piercing on a number of occasions. That said, I didn't have to worry too much about what the other players (River and Mercurio) were doing - I just tried to use stuff that would stop Barnaby and built my fight stat. If you can take down an 8+ shield Barn, you typically end up slaughtering anyone else.

 I didn't see reflect used at all that game, and I passed on using Poison Dagger (a good thing, since I drew almost no Rot symbols that game and the poison would have made little difference). I did see a couple uses of Snake Venom, but it mostly ended up poisoning guards.  I think the one time  a player got poisoned in combat, they died later the same turn in another fight. I can see where Poison Dagger is nice if you already have a bunch of Rot symbols in your hand (e.g. if some joker plays Call of the Worm on you), but it almost might as well read "change Rot rolls to Swords" in my opinion.

I also got the Food Taster follower, which I was actually happy about because there were a lot of Plague perils on the board after a King's Dec. Plus, the artwork made me laugh, great work there.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 07:48:28 AM by Biologist »
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dragoncrescent

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2016, 06:50:26 AM »
I didn't see reflect used at all that game, and I passed on using Poison Dagger (a good thing, since I drew almost no Rot symbols that game and the poison would have made little difference). I did see a couple uses of Snake Venom, but it mostly ended up poisoning guards.  I think the one time  a player got poisoned in combat, they died later the same turn in another fight. I can see where Poison Dagger is nice if you already have a bunch of Rot symbols in your hand (e.g. if some joker plays Call of the Worm on you), but it almost might as well read "change Rot rolls to Swords" in my opinion.

I also got the Food Taster follower, which I was actually happy about because there were a lot of Plague perils on the board after a King's Dec. Plus, the artwork made me laugh, great work there.

It's an opossum. What does... oh. OH! Hahahahah! That's clever as heck, and it almost sailed RIGHT by me! Well done, LoG. :D

Yeah... at the moment, Poison Dagger is a little underwhelming. I was expecting it to be analogous to Longbow: Turn one Rot roll (which normally would be a miss) into a Poison Hit. The temporary boost in hit percentage  could make the card considerably more useful, as you would then have a 2/3 chance of rolling a successful hit. As it stands now, the card is useless until you feed it a Rot symbol. Depending on what deck you intend to draw from, those usually don't come up very often....
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 07:49:45 AM by dragoncrescent »

Kletian999

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2016, 10:57:35 PM »
It could be much better if it was first Rot symbol period- rolled or burned.

Wessolf27

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2016, 10:40:19 AM »
Hrm... playing through the update, I find that not much has really changed in the way of shields and armors being better than weapons in most of my games. In fact, the one card with a reflect ability really is powerful as it has the potential of eating away at the opponent's extra shields, and it does run into what Kletian has said about never losing relevance considering it's priority and its very virtue of being a shield card.

But the fact that there is only one card that gives reflect vs. the several that do give pierce means that reflect dice don't necessarily overwhelm strategies, but they do make weapon cards a slight disincentive if one wants to pack a pierce weapon. (Or if you're Thane, make weapons something one might slightly avoid in favor more of something like a Shimmering Shield-Berserker combo)

So, I can see that reflect dice are going to be pesky, (especially once Magna comes into play (even more so with her and shimmering shield together)) but as of now, they are somewhat fair if only because they are rare.

Poison dice on the other hand sorely need extra weapon cards and sword burns in order for them to be even useful. They have never triggered vs. heroes for me and the two instances I have seen only worked vs. Banes. Rot does get a slight boost to being less of a nuisance roll for non-corrupted heroes, but the difficulty of having them trigger does make them less than appealing. (Our friend, the Poison Taster at least can protect against poisons outside of battle as well, but the poison dagger and snake venom cards see little benefit as weapons.)

The way that they could become deadlier is if they are only relegated to rolled dice (or give the dagger a reusable snake venom ability if a player burns a rot card) or if they are given a form of anti-priority.
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Biologist

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2016, 11:25:27 AM »
The way that they could become deadlier is if they are only relegated to rolled dice (or give the dagger a reusable snake venom ability if a player burns a rot card).

I honestly think I might like it if Poison Dagger straight up gave the same benefit as Snake Venom, but to a lesser degree (turn first rolled Rot symbol into poison hit rather than first two) instead of being based off card burn. Snake venom has the benefit of always being useful (arguably less so if you're actually corrupted), since it turns critical failures into hits, which helps even if the poison gets cancelled.

My problem with the Poison Dagger as it stands is that, even with the argument that you can ditch Rot symbol cards more easily, I have no strong desire to touch the thing. If I'm looking for a Rot victory, I'll equip it until something better comes along, but the majority of  my Rot symbol cards are going to be played/equipped, not burnt in combat. If I'm not going for Rot, I'm left with a dilemma: should I equip the dagger and accept some infection now for a chance to clear Rot symbols from my hand later? Some of this comes down to whether I already have gear and/or Rot points, but given that it's hard to permanently clear infection my answer is generally "no" unless I have Cleansing Wyld available.

Poison Dagger feels like Raven's Beak dagger felt pre-buff: I see what they're trying to do with it, and I can appreciate that, but I don't think it's quite where it needs to be.

Edit: I'm considering Poison Dagger separately from the challenges facing the combat poison mechanic as a whole. Also, I do appreciate that not every card can be extremely powerful, and maybe PD's rather small (in my opinion) niche is a conscious decision. I'm fine with having to make the best choices with the cards I'm dealt and so forth. It's just that as an introduction to a potentially cool new mechanic, PD feels somewhat underwhelming. I'm sure if nothing else, though, we'll see more items and spells that will expand poison's use in combat in a future update.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 11:32:50 AM by Biologist »
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Teii

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2016, 09:06:03 AM »
I don't like that longbow and hand cannons are weaker, but I wouldn't say the loss of priority is bad.  First of all, longbow was never very good.  I doubt many people used it in 1.3 or it made attacking a 6 shield Barnaby a good idea.  If someone has good equipment, you're going to generally avoid fighting them.  This isn't limited to shields either.  I'm not attacking someone with a bane blade and war horn with a full party.  Most people likely went from not using longbow and avoiding tanks in 1.3 to not using longbow and avoiding tanks in 1.4. 

I do think the new attack queue will be better in the long run, but old cards should have been updated before it went live.  If special dice had unique priority, there would likely be issues with adding more special dice cards in the future.  The lack of priority lets cards be changed to more consistently achieve their intended function.  For example, longbow / hand cannons could be changed to make the last 1/2 rolled hits pierce when attacking.  That would make the items good against high shield enemies or when used by low fight characters.  The items get more consistent because you essentially guarantee damage.


Kletian999

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2016, 12:13:36 PM »
The purpose of the longbow was never to kill, it was to scratch the 6+ shield opponents so when they fail to scratch you, you can push them out of the way or out of the palace.

Blake Mizzi

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2016, 06:32:00 PM »
I'm carefully reading all the threads and posts to do with game balance and our cards, especially since the V1.4 Update and new battle system has gone out.

There will be card balances inevitably coming - keep the conversation, comments and feedback flowing :)

Thanks everyone!

The Observer

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2016, 06:44:05 PM »
The purpose of the longbow was never to kill, it was to scratch the 6+ shield opponents so when they fail to scratch you, you can push them out of the way or out of the palace.

Except this never works anyways - since you didn't equip shields, the tank individual simply hurts you far more than the 1 point of damage you MIGHT score.

So longbow also fails in that regard.

Want to help piercing but still retain the current system? Longbow - 1 static piercing, hand cannons, 2 static piercing attack. None of this "rolled swords" nonsense. Done.

I'm carefully reading all the threads and posts to do with game balance and our cards, especially since the V1.4 Update and new battle system has gone out.

There will be card balances inevitably coming - keep the conversation, comments and feedback flowing :)

Thanks everyone!

Personally, I would rather the card balances have come with the update instead of having to wait months for 1.5 to come out. That way the game can be as balanced as possible while still not exacerbating the already dominant strategy.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 06:46:16 PM by The Observer »

dragoncrescent

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2016, 09:08:34 PM »
Except this never works anyways - since you didn't equip shields, the tank individual simply hurts you far more than the 1 point of damage you MIGHT score.

So longbow also fails in that regard.

Want to help piercing but still retain the current system? Longbow - 1 static piercing, hand cannons, 2 static piercing attack. None of this "rolled swords" nonsense. Done.

You know, I was thinking this same thing just the other day. We have Hero's Shield, so I bet there's going to be some treasure in an upcoming patch that grants 1 static Piercing Hit...

Wessolf27

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2016, 01:54:14 AM »
Well, there's one thing that might be important to consider now that dice priority is a thing:

The order of your equipment would probably be important as well. Like, assuming someone wears a second armor/shield, having a Hero's shield on the first slot is probably going to be different from having a Hero's shield on the third slot. The Blacksmith's ability probably would also influence this.

Has anyone tested this yet?
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Kletian999

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2016, 01:30:43 PM »
Yes, gear position is now important with the loss of special dice priority.  Due to the inability to move equipment cards outside of being Barnaby, I feel that is an unwanted wrinkle to add to the combat mechanics.

Biologist

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2016, 01:41:06 PM »
Yes, gear position is now important with the loss of special dice priority.  Due to the inability to move equipment cards outside of being Barnaby, I feel that is an unwanted wrinkle to add to the combat mechanics.

Reading this just made me realize something. It would make sense, going forward, if LoG gave us the ability to shuffle the position of our equipment in the inventory slots (not replacing except when playing as Barnaby, just re-positioning).  That would allow for more strategic use of equipment and wouldn't punish players if they happen to find gear in an unfortunate order. Though I admit, it would increase the learning curve somewhat for newer players.
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