Author Topic: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement  (Read 29634 times)

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Insomnicron

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2016, 03:08:40 PM »
I feel their is a lot of ABSOLUTES being thrown around considering:
- We don't have the full picture yet
- We certainly haven't played with this patch yet
- The past has illustrated just how much the LoG team play test things to get them to an interesting state
- it is possible that IF piercing being made more dynamic does weaken it, MAYBE that is a good thing for the over all state of the game once you factor in the new changes (which, again, we haven't played with yet)
- Poison is a SUPER powerful effect... the THREAT of it on dice far out ways the fact that it likely may not land... it's scary because far worse than dying to a fight, is killing your self with your own AP next turn :D

Its super fine to worry about the changes, and AFTER you've played them its fine if you don't like them... likewise voicing your concerns before hand makes sense... but do temper that with trust in the devs who made the game you love in the first place. :)

LoG got it this far, I trust that, even if I don't "GET" some of the changes now, they will make for a far more interesting game going forward.

Peace! :D

Kletian999

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2016, 05:37:58 AM »
I'm on the testing team, I have played this patch,

dragoncrescent

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2016, 08:40:51 AM »
Yeeeah... considering that Poisoned Dagger gives you no statistical in-combat bonus, the equipment will be useless for the majority of the time it's equipped. Even in combat, the item does not help you unless you 'feed' it, and then the dice you lock in will be 'middle priority' - locked in after equipment, but before dice roll. I really feel like the card is under-powered. I understand it's supposed to have added utility in destroying Rot cards for players who want to remain uncorrupted, but that's kind of a moot point. Equipping the thing to begin with gives you a point of Rot, meaning that 'pure' player just handed the Rotlord an extra dice.

Even a minor change of +1 dice in combat (making it a strictly superior version of the Battle Axe) would REALLY help it out. In the little testing I've gotten in on, I haven't been able to land a Poison hit once. Against characters who go super-tanky, the burnt Rot card will most likely just fall upon one of their equipped Shield items. It could be helpful to counteract someone's Reflecting shield, but otherwise... it's just very lackluster.

While I'm glad that LoG is testing out big shakeups like this, I'm equally glad that Blake has responded to the forum's concern. It seems like the devs are taking a wait-and-see approach: if the change doesn't work out, they've signaled that it can be reverted. I feel this kind of flexibility and willingness to accept critique is a rather positive direction for a development team. (Once again, I come from a background in Blizzard games. XD)


Blake Mizzi

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2016, 02:08:25 PM »
Thanks Dragoncrescent!

And thank you too Kletian999 too, Kletian999 has been play testing the new patch and I always pay careful attention to feedback from our tight testing crew. Don't forget this change is a level up so we can grow on this new base and bring in more cool gear and there maybe a little "re-balancing" to be done with the current equipment in-game. We do have penciled some more items that will make use of the new effects in different ways - It might not happen next patch, but stay tuned.

One thing we wanted to encourage was a greater use of variety in kit equipment choices - I've personally found that with the new system in place, I do equip more "utility" items than I did before. I feel less drive to overload the shields or stacked swords. Combine that with the way the system encourages more card burning and we are steering Armello in a slightly new direction - overall I'm very happy where the "feel" of the game is going and what we can do with this system.

As you all know, we're here working on this baby, if the system proves to be a turn in the wrong direction, we'll make a new steering correction again, but our (and my) confidence is high. I completely expect that it will need a few patch cycles to "iron out", the hope is we'll end up in a better place :)




 

Insomnicron

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2016, 03:44:20 PM »
Awww man... egg (spirits stones?) on my face.

I was unaware that Kletian999 was a tester.

I'll just see my self out... sorry all :D

CravingForCookie

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2016, 08:55:46 PM »
Pretty excited about the upcoming battle changes. Hopefully it will hit the PS4 a lot sooner than the last patch did  :)

Kletian999

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2016, 05:04:38 AM »
I'm always glad to have a dialogue with Blake and the team.  1.4's new cards take little advantage of this priority change as it stands.  Yes new cards are always coming, yes old cards can even change; but that will be some time away from now and without feedback the right changes and cards might not come.

I find it surprising that utility cards feel more attractive to the dev team.  Piercing utility cards are weaker now, which was the only counter to someone with 3 pieces of shield gear.  Reflection and poison without priority make them little better than the cheapest old items ESPECIALLY versus someone with high shields, and wielding non-combat util gear will continue to lose fights to someone with armor.

Blake Mizzi

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2016, 11:17:43 AM »
Stay around Insomnicron! I want to hear your thoughts too!

Kletian999 often hits things right on the head so I'm taking careful note, I do have confidence that the system will shine and come into its own - going back to playing the game with one less body feels crap now but at the time it was difficult to be sure that it was a good move. My belief is with a little time and experimentation, a balance in the next patch that we'll all agree the new system is better.

Keep keeping me honest Kletian999!

Thanks everyone :)

Insomnicron

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2016, 11:31:26 AM »
I won't go too far :D
I just offered my apologies (and again in a private message) to Kletian999 for making assumptions.

Combat

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2016, 10:35:56 PM »
I appreciate that there is a group working behind the scenes to try out these changes & they do appear to have some issues with has been made currently, but my impression is that until a larger sample size is taken there is not a lot of definitive data that can be taken from it

Kletian999, you'll be able to tell us more about this but if someone does stack 3 shield items won't the pierce effects work fine against it?

I understand that Thane etc will be able to counter this but surely it's only if they have (in Thanes case) sword cards on hand

I might not be understanding the new system as yet without seeing it in play but it doesn't sound as clean cut as it appears to be getting made out to be

The poison effect may not be as strong vs a full defence build but will still fill a roll for items on a budget surely?

Kind of splurging thoughts here but want to get them out, sorry if this is re-hashing some already covered discussion

Edit: changed start of post
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 01:53:57 AM by Combat »

Kletian999

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2016, 12:54:19 PM »
Stay around Insomnicron! I want to hear your thoughts too!

Kletian999 often hits things right on the head so I'm taking careful note, I do have confidence that the system will shine and come into its own - going back to playing the game with one less body feels crap now but at the time it was difficult to be sure that it was a good move. My belief is with a little time and experimentation, a balance in the next patch that we'll all agree the new system is better.

Keep keeping me honest Kletian999!

Thanks everyone :)

The +1 Body was an instant win in my opinion, I had no reservations against it  ;)  The only change I ever considered regarding it was "crediting" the body into wits for already high body characters.

Kletian999

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2016, 01:06:07 PM »
I appreciate that there is a group working behind the scenes to try out these changes & they do appear to have some issues with has been made currently, but my impression is that until a larger sample size is taken there is not a lot of definitive data that can be taken from it

Kletian999, you'll be able to tell us more about this but if someone does stack 3 shield items won't the pierce effects work fine against it?

I understand that Thane etc will be able to counter this but surely it's only if they have (in Thanes case) sword cards on hand

I might not be understanding the new system as yet without seeing it in play but it doesn't sound as clean cut as it appears to be getting made out to be

The poison effect may not be as strong vs a full defense build but will still fill a roll for items on a budget surely?

Kind of splurging thoughts here but want to get them out, sorry if this is re-hashing some already covered discussion

Edit: changed start of post

Sample size doesn't really come into it.  Combat is in most cases a math problem.  1+1 doesn't stop equaling 2 if you run it in your calculator too many times. 

Will piercing still work against a heavy shielder?  Yes.  However it's going to work less well against everyone else. 
The Key is OPPORTUNITY cost, what do you forfeit by equipping 1 piece of gear over anything else you find.

Players need to gear for either the most common or most critical situation; and their ability to gear is controlled by item deck luck and the game's gold liberality.  If I have a longbow in hand, but already have say a Bastard sword and 2 shielding items, I may or may not equip it based on whether there is already a megatank in the game.  Wielding the bow when nobody "needs" to be pierced means I'm going to lose more combats.  When you make gear too situational, or when it's situational benefit is too close to common benefits, then the smart decision is to avoid that piece of gear.   Nerfing the piercing effect makes it a riskier gamble with lower payoff venture away from the current "optimal" gear cards.

As for poison, since it's tied to early rolls or burns with the current selection of cards, it shows up very early making it too easily blocked.  Like I said before, if someone is failing to block enough to get poisoned, they likely failed enough block to die, especially if you hadn't worn a poison weapon but used a regular weapon.

Wessolf27

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2016, 12:44:18 AM »
I'm holding out a cautious hope that these new changes do benefit the game overall, but I would like to ask this question in the event that things might not go to plan.

If special dice priority did make a return, would it go "piercing > reflecting > normal dice > poison"? With special dice cancelling each other in the event that they match up?

But in any case, since equipment dice go first, would there be changes to certain equipment with the pierce dice? Like, longbows could give the pierce property to the "first" attack dice instead (whether they be from equips, burns, or rolls) and hand cannons either be an improved version of the longbow, or give 1 pierce die immediately?

Along with that, could poison daggers give the poison property to a rolled dice, provided they first burn a card?
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Combat

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2016, 03:42:32 AM »
Sample size doesn't really come into it.  Combat is in most cases a math problem.  1+1 doesn't stop equaling 2 if you run it in your calculator too many times. 

Will piercing still work against a heavy shielder?  Yes.  However it's going to work less well against everyone else. 
The Key is OPPORTUNITY cost, what do you forfeit by equipping 1 piece of gear over anything else you find.

Players need to gear for either the most common or most critical situation; and their ability to gear is controlled by item deck luck and the game's gold liberality.  If I have a longbow in hand, but already have say a Bastard sword and 2 shielding items, I may or may not equip it based on whether there is already a megatank in the game.  Wielding the bow when nobody "needs" to be pierced means I'm going to lose more combats.  When you make gear too situational, or when it's situational benefit is too close to common benefits, then the smart decision is to avoid that piece of gear.   Nerfing the piercing effect makes it a riskier gamble with lower payoff venture away from the current "optimal" gear cards.

As for poison, since it's tied to early rolls or burns with the current selection of cards, it shows up very early making it too easily blocked.  Like I said before, if someone is failing to block enough to get poisoned, they likely failed enough block to die, especially if you hadn't worn a poison weapon but used a regular weapon.

Might need your spelunking hats for this one, I apologise for the long post

Maybe i'm not understanding the system, so i'll make an example and you can let me know if i'm correct?

I am Amber and have the Item Hand Cannon, you are Magna and have a Trusty Shield.

Our fight values are irrelevant for the discussion but we both have sword and shield symbol cards in hand.

Ok so now to the dice results;

I decide to go on the offensive and burn 2 cards resulting in 2 attacks being generated, through my dice being rolled I manage to roll two sword symbols which sit in the 3rd and 4th slot of generated dice

so we have 2 hits from cards and 2 additional ones which pierce (from dice roll), the piercing results sit in the 3rd and 4th slots

You, as Magna, generate a shield from your Trusty Shield and then decide you want to reflect some damage so you burn 2 cards at the start of the combat resulting in 2 shields that will reflect, you also roll 2 more shields from your dice sitting in the 3rd and 4th slots

Unless i'm mistaken in this the following result will take place;

The first hit is blocked by the shield as normal, the reflect damage will bounce the second damage that Amber rolled back to her, the first pierce effect will be cancelled by the second reflect effect, the last pierce effect will then go off and pierce the last  shield of Magna, Is this correct?

In my opinion the system we have now is more like a mathematical equation dealing in absolutes than the system that will be put in place, quite simply now a pierce effect is an automatic hit and the loss of a shield from the opponent but in the new system your pierce might hit anyway after the opponents shields have been used already so will just be "normal hits"  all this means is that pierce is weaker, but it's currently (arguably) too strong anyway, especially with only 1 character having ready accessibility of it

Best way to think of it is that in the new system 1 pierce + 1 hit vs 1 shield might actually equal 2, or it could also equal 1

If I have this combat example incorrect then it will of course invalidate the entire post up to this point and I apologise in advance if that is the case


Now I understand what your saying that the longbow or hand cannon might not be as strong because of the change, but there are plenty of items that sit in the category of "I don't want this item because it is weaker than X" if people choose to hold off on equipping those then that is their choice.....but that's part of the game!  If they don't want the items they still have to search for the ones they want

In my opinion, at the moment there is almost no situation that you would even want to use half the equipment unless you're Barnaby so changes to the longbow would not make it unique in this situation.  I certainly wouldn't scour the deck for a spy glass or sailors lantern, but you can bet that i'll do it for a tower shield or chain mail shirt.  The only way you can make items like this less viable would be something like making the royal shields ability a standard ability, giving people a higher chance to naturally roll a shield, or for that matter less chance to roll a hit would allow for different equipment to become more viable and actually make items that generate dice be more viable at the same time, but these are not changes to be made lightly as they would effect the entire core of the game.

You are right on the poison item, it will hit too early to be viable vs someone that has any moderate number of shields, even assuming it isnt cancelled in some way through other special dice

I do want to stick to my guns on this one, the new system sounds like it will be fine to me from the way I have interpreted the information, the issues you appear to have with the new system aren't really any different than issues you may have with the current system either and the only thing that has majorly changed is that pierce might not be quite as strong as it used to be making it more situational, in my eyes that is only a good thing.

Thanks for reading, hope we can get some more discussion going from this post

Edit: fixing quote
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 03:48:49 AM by Combat »

Kletian999

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Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2016, 06:08:35 AM »
Your Amber produces 4 attacks, the last 2 pierce.
My Magna produces 4 shields, the middle 2 reflection.

Under the old system,  Piercing and reflect would nullify so neither side is damaged.
Under the new system, 1 pierce goes through, 1 pierce nullifies 1 reflect, and the last reflect adds 1 hit that Amber will have to try to block.

My issue is what happens when the numbers change, especially when Magna is not involved.  If Amber rolled 2 more hits before the sword symbols, those pierce would do nothing in the new system, that item slot with the guns could have been empty.  In the old system those pierces would have prevented 2 reflects (effectively 2 shields), or dealt 2 more damage to a nonreflector.  The guns were always adverse to card burning because their demand for natural rolls, but the new change provides further DISINCENTIVE to burning cards.   There is still no way to pierce outside of Thane's burns and natural rolls, so piercing showing up "too late" will be common.

As for Reflection's benefit: Magnas currently can only get 1 static reflection from gear, so while reflection will almost never be wasted outside of an overburning Magna, preventing a rolled pierce (1 shield) is worth more than reflecting a hit (1 sword) unless you absolutely needed that damage to kill or push your opponent.