Author Topic: 1st Turn slight imbalance  (Read 1201 times)

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Shiroe

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1st Turn slight imbalance
« on: September 05, 2015, 03:17:41 PM »
Aloha Armello gang,

Game came out and am thrilled beyond measure to play the full release. I noticed some things in the game that don't make much sense to me in terms of balance, and figure I would bring it up here in case there was a deliberate and was wondering if you could explain the logic if it is deliberate.

Turn 1 Quest Choice in Multiplayer:
Player 1 gets to look at his/her cards as soon as the game starts (since they draw first). At this time, they are able to look at their cards while they are choosing. This gives them an advantage on earning the bonus quest reward. For example, lets say they draw Feral Spirit (+2 to attack, -1 wits), and they have a quest that will have an attack check as one of their choices for bonus rewards. This means they get to choose the quest they know they have a card will help them. Place this along side of the fact that player 1 has the highest chances of being prestige leader on day/night rotation 1, and that gives player 1 a double advantage to ensure they have the most prestige and an almost guaranteed bonus.

Players 2-4, on the other hand, do not get to see their starting hand, but there is a timer on how long they have to choose their quest (else it is assigned to them randomly). As such, they cannot rely on their cards to give them an advantage to get a particular optional quest reward.

I hop this makes sense on why I think that player 1 has an unfair advantage for turn 1, which has the potential to be maintained throughout the game since they have a higher chance to get a treasure/follower/spirit stone than any of the other players during multiplayer. If I were to have a suggestion, it would be one of the following:

1. Allow all players to draw their cards on turn 1 at the same time as player 1:
Pros - all players will be allowed to look at their cards to plan out their quest options
Balance Alignment(?) - Player 4 will have the most time to plan out their move, which is balanced against how player 4 is the least likely to get a prestige lead on turn 1 due to "natural" gain of prestige on turn 1
Cons - I am not sure how the card system works, but it might be that all players draw from a common deck of cards? if this is the case, then player 2 will not have a chance to use the cards that player 1 discards. I am not sure if that's how you designed the game, but if it is, I can see how this would mess with your system (again, not sure, am guessing)

2. Don't let a player choose their first quest until it is their 1st turn:
Pros - All players will essentially be acting like "player 1" in how much time they have to choose their first quest, how they plan that quest out, and what to do with the cards they start with.
Balance Alignment - Can't think of how this can help balance the power Player 1 has in terms of almost a guarantee prestige lead, so I don't think this method helps balance that potential power spike
Cons - Makes the 1st round take slightly longer than it is currently since planning your move won't happen until the moment you know where you want to go.

Note the 2nd: Prestige ties
Again, I am sure you designed the game specifically to do what you have asked it to do. When prestige is tied, the person who got to that prestige first gets priority as leader. Similarly to how I think that's an unfair advantage for player 1 on turn 1, was wondering if a little more suspense might be in order. Similar to how you have the "quest reward" gamble system (40% reward shows up as 10 coins, 4 good and 6 bad), maybe have a prestige leader gamble system as well. However many people are tied for prestige, their faces show up as coins and the game randomly chooses one to be the prestige leader. This way, on turn 1 in particular, in the very common event that all players end up with 1 prestige on dawn 2, they all have a chance of being the one who influences the game. It may also add a level of suspense when the game begins to end, for example. If someone is at 8 prestige and is leader, and someone else is at 6 prestige on Night 8, if they kill prestige leader, they get 7 each, giving them a shot at prestige leadership. Since so much of the game has a random element (dice battles, quest rewards, bane spawns, card draw), I figure one more thing like prestige tie system may work into the suspense that luck is as much a part of this game as skill.

The second concept, prestige ties, doesn't bother me as much as what I see as a turn 1 imbalance, just another method I thought might help balance the turn 1 system.

LOVE THE GAME! Thanks you so much for making it. I'm eager to try out Ranked, hence why I'm so eager for the game to have some balance to it so that a good game doesn't come down to having the perfect layout at the start of the game, but by playing the perfect game throughout the entire match.

Mahalo,
Shiroe

Shiroe

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Re: 1st Turn slight imbalance
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2015, 03:30:50 PM »
Oh, and one last thing. I know a lot of people are upset that there is so much random element to this game, and that skill and strategy is not as important. Personally, I like that aspect of the game, it means that everyone always has a chance to win (even though they only see it as "I always have a chance to lose"). It's nice to play a game where victory is not guaranteed. I remember a lot of multiplayer games I played where I was prestige leader, and someone got lucky against the king and killed him. Another game where I got all my rot points to 8 and had prestige lead, but someone got lucky on dungeon visits and got their last 2 spirit stones. Learning how to deal with luck is a skill and strategy on it's own, and you've developed a game that lets you play and increase your chances, but luck will always be there. I always laugh a bit when people say this game is so random, but Poker is still a popular game, and that games has a huge random element too. There are good players because they know how to increase their odds, but in the end Lady Luck has a say. I like this aspect of the game. But maybe I'm just a weirdo @_@. Thanks for making a game that's not a guaranteed win, but is guaranteed fun (unless people rage quit because they want a perfect victory, then it's not so fun for the people who stay behind to keep playing)

Kletian999

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Re: 1st Turn slight imbalance
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2015, 12:37:25 AM »
Shiroe, I think there are already 2 measures to balance the prestige leader oftening being player 1.  First is that if he does get prestige leader first, he'll be targeted first for harmful cards.  Second, by the end of the game many of the leader declarations actually hurt the leader.

Shiroe

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Re: 1st Turn slight imbalance
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2015, 03:55:15 AM »
Shiroe, I think there are already 2 measures to balance the prestige leader oftening being player 1.  First is that if he does get prestige leader first, he'll be targeted first for harmful cards.  Second, by the end of the game many of the leader declarations actually hurt the leader.

Aloha Kleitian:

Targetted First: This often happens after turn 1 Prestige declaration has gone into effect. I guess what i mean by imbalance is that players 2-4 are less likely to be hopeful of having a chance to earn the kings favor on turn one. Not so much unfair gameplay as it is unfair game experience.

End Game: By end game, the prestige leader tends to fly around to multiple people. I haven't had many games where prestige leader was lead the whole game in Multiplayer. Like you say, they get targeted early with good players. But early game prestige has a way of helping the prestige leader, especially Hand-Dump king declarations. As mentioned earlier, they have a better way to plan out the use of their cards, so they are more likely to have less useful cards in their hands for the hand dump or hand swap. I agree the end game prestige attacks on prestige leader are good, it makes it so that maintaining prestige lead gets harder, especially the -prestige declarations.