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Messages - Cinix

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Bugs! / No Reward Given During Blood Moon
« on: February 01, 2018, 03:01:45 PM »

Build Number: 1.9.6-steam-p4#304
Platform: PC
Bug Description:
After completion of multiplayer match during the January 31st Blood Moon Event no reward was given.
Repro Steps:
Play through game, have one player drop during game.

Bugs! / Rank Icon Not loading Correctly
« on: November 14, 2017, 10:56:47 AM »
Just as the title says. Image attached.

Not dead yet in my attempts to try and talk sense into LoG!

LoG I have some very important things that you should've found in your market research when deciding on your price point for skins. It seems that you where looking at free to play games or others that use the free to play model (even if not) rather then looking at normal full priced games.

So having said that I'd like to share the following. Screen shots taken from the Play Station Store for the DLC content of a game that is fairly recent called Disgaea 5. This game has a host of dlc content and I've picked a screen shot for each type that also shows their prices. They have MULTIPLE dlcs of each type.

So lets get started.

This first DLC is a PACK!
Contains 3 characters and a quest that has 3 maps and limited cutscenes (scenes using in game sprites + dialog boxes or using multiple still images + dialog boxes).
Each character includes:
In Game Sprite
In Game Sprite Animations (Movement, Hit, Attacking, ect)
Character Art
Unique Skills (Each of which is fully animated, one of the ones for the character Zetta is especially long)
Unique Traits
Voice Acting
Alternate Character Color Schemes

Single Character DLC: This dlc only adds a single new character that can be used and nothing else.
In Game Sprite
In Game Sprite Animations (Movement, Hit, Attacking, ect)
Character Art
Unique Skills (Each of which is fully animated)
Unique Traits
Voice Acting
Alternate Character Color Schemes

And we come to the last one:

This one adds in one 'character' that is just a small alteration to an existing unit type in the game. Uses the same animations, color palette and all as normal Prinny model however this character contains nearly every spell in the game so it can teach it to other characters and contains a few unique traits.
It's free of charge.

That's how you do character packs and skins. Note that Disgaea flat out doesn't do skins. They just give you a new character. While I will say their larger pack that has 3 characters + Maps + Story + Quest is cheap as they only charge an extra 2 dollars compared to a single character, their market practices have garnered a lot of positive customer feed back and MORE people buying their product and then sinking more money in through DLCs.

As a side note. DLC content that is higher tends to add more or be in smaller quantity as in the game is only going to be releasing 2 maybe 3 FULL DLCs (Whether that's new armies for strategy games, new quest for story games, new maps for FPS ect). 

So here I am again.

Where are those NEW animations you said where in there?
Finally got to see someone using a skin in game and 'ehem. You 100% pallet swapped River and added a few TINY changes to the model. Nothing that required new actual animation on it. In addition the fighting 'animation' also just seems like some color changes and minor alterations as well.

While normally I would be fine with this but you're charging more then what Warframe charges for their alternate skins and items some of which often add in new physics items and affects as well.  You have over price your pallet swap skins LoG and if you did market test theses you did NOT do enough.

Fair enough, hah. It's not the first time I've seen this sort of discussion get bogged down and derailed by accident. :v I agree on the price bit too - even though I said I'd probably buy Thane's skin, I think 4.99 would have been the ideal price point to make it the most appealing for everyone.

Yup also at 4.99 it'd attract the attention of people who might normally pass it by. You increase the number of people who will purchase it. In addition at 4.99 you get people more willing to maybe pick up that extra skin for the character you don't main but you still enjoy.

Also glad to know it's happened before. The wonderful methods of derailment :P in this case the people jumping onto the extremes bandwagon. Reason my last response brought up that I was NOT talking about .99 skins :P

Armello's skins might only be a little cheaper than that, but consider this: it's an entirely new 3D model (I presume), an entirely new portrait for the character, and probably new battle sprites on top of that.  It's a lot more effort put into a skin compared to costumes in an MMO or whatnot, and it's cheaper than an MMO's costumes to boot, even if only a little.

All that said, I still stand by my initial remark; most people are probably just going to buy a skin for the character they primarily play (Thane, in my case), and that's it. It's not a case of telling people "oh, just ignore the other skins, it's okay!", it's a case of telling people "why would you buy a skin for a character you don't play?". I understand the tendency of some people to want to "collect" skins (especially the roleplaying type in MMOs, of course), but there comes a time where it's less about a price point and more about the ability to control yourself.

I'm not expecting that argument to convince anyone who's on the opposite end of this debate, considering most people get really uppity and antsy and snarky about this subject as a whole nowadays (and it's not unfounded, I know), but still. My two cents.

I actually agree with you and understand most people won't buy all of them. My personal recommendation is that each skin should be about 5 dollars.

As after re-reading (Even my own responses) I realized my original point got lost and even off track.
I can live with the prices on this as I'm sure most can (Personally I would've liked to see the Skins brought down to about 5 dollars each). I was speaking up more to draw attention and make sure eyes stay on prices and practices because I don't want LOG to start taking on too many of the bad AAA gaming practices. That's it, small instances like this are no big deal on their own, it's the collective direction I want LOG and the players who support the company to keep an eye on. That's all. That and dialog between creators and their audience is a good thing. If a creator only receives negative responses OR they only receive nothing but praise, then creators can fail/leave, things can stagnate or  bad practices happen. Sometimes a combination. Dialogs are important to get voices from more then one view point and make a company great by reading and learning from/considering multiple views from their audience.

I'm excited for them! It seems like from the promo art that Amber may be getting something cool, which I'm all for! Also, can't wait to see whether we're getting some new cards...

As for the price, it's actually about par for the price of cosmetic items. I mean, you look at Heroes of the Storm, and their $7 ~ $14 skins. The only game where cosmetics flow like wine are DotA and TF2, both of which are backed directly by Steam. I mean, they're vanity  items - something not necessary for you to thrive and win a game. I'm vaguely reminded of a comic some artist on dA did once about the common complaint "You should lower your commission prices!" The response was basically along the lines of 'Well, this is what I do for a living. I need to eat too, and hey - feel free not to buy if you can't agree to the prices. It's not like groceries, or some necessity - art is a luxury item."

Oh boy you brought the 'artists' into this. Sorry but especially regarding DA and other online art communities. Don't take their words. I've watched so many of them flounder and fail in person (yes I've know a number of them and I used to do art commissions on other sites. I understand the price game of art commissions very well) because they didn't budge on their price to adjust for their market and over charged customers. As for your game examples, they still feed of whales as they are higher in price do to the nature of the games. You don't BUY HotS you get to play it for free then pay for new additions or stuff in game. Their prices are higher because that is the ONLY source of income from the game.

That's all I'm saying on that. Back to the topic of Armello.

For the skins in Armello we're NOT asking for 0.99 skins, we're asking that for 4 skins you don't spend more then what it cost to get the game itself. That's what doesn't make sense.

I should also say I want to buy these skins. I WANT to throw more money to support the game even if I wont use most of the skins.
I want to be able to justify the expense though and right now I can't. I can afford it, but i can't justify giving in more to this bad business practice that has ruined several other games for me.

While I do consider the skins to be a bit on the pricy side, that's just the state of the market when it comes to hero skins. I've never seen cheaper ones in games that offer skins for sale, in fact, only more expensive ones. I'd assume that making skins for Armello wasn't any less work than for a game like HotS or LoL, so why would LoG deserve to receive less in return? Keep in mind that this is a business, not a charity.
Because it's a slippery slope for pay-to-play games when a cosmetic set costs you more than the base game. On the Kickstarter they also say they intend to offer future cards and quests via in-app purchases as well.

This is the point I was making. Also for LoL they do actually pump out the skins for cheap, they sometimes just pallet swap and add a few bloom affects. HotS and LoG just followed LoL's example and that's why their prices are high.

I'm not saying it didn't take work for Armello however you should NOT compare your prices to free to play games or games that have already gotten attention for bad player manipulation. Games like that don't make their money off the average player, they make their money off the whales. Players who become addicted to the game. That's how most FtP games make a lot of their money in that market.

I understand that work goes in when you actually add new animations in and all does take time. But I stand by my statement that 6.99 for a single skin isn't ok. When all four skins together cost more then your game that's a problem and it sends a BAD message for new players.

Not saying paying for skins is bad but the industry has gotten fast and loose with it abusing it and their players. While the Armello skins from what we've been told are MORE then the average skin it still is a skin and it should NOT be more then 5 dollars each. If you went 9.99 for the entire pack, I'd still think it's a bit much BUT I think it wouldn't be as bad as spending more then 20.00 to get all four skins. FOUR SKINS! That's not ok.

Hey, while this looks cool I'm going to be that guy who speaks up about it. 6.99 each? That seems a lot for a single skin and really off. I personally did feel a bit underwhelmed at the last 'dlc' content (seasons) however at that time I was ok throwing the extra money to help fund things. 6.99 per skin however seems just silly in price. I'd recommend charge a little more and bundle them together (Honestly I think 6.99 or 9.99 is still a bit much for just skins. ) or if you guys are dead set on selling them individually then lower that price PLEASE.

Do not fall into the pit falls of AAA gaming where they start to nickle and dime every player to see how much money they can get out of them. I don't think you guys are going down that road (yet), but I'd rather voice up now then later on after the point of no return. I remember a time when a 9.99 dlc would get you a LOT of content and the average dlc that was in the 9.99 to 19.99 range of price meant you where getting a lot of new stuff and that small packs where it's just new skins, maybe a few new items or small tweaks where 4.99 at the most.

I know it sounds like I'm over reacting, this is a small thing now. However like I said I want to make sure such voices are heard early on before the major issues come up.

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