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Armello => Armello Development => Topic started by: Darcy Smith on January 25, 2017, 05:53:30 PM

Title: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Darcy Smith on January 25, 2017, 05:53:30 PM
This post is a feature reveal for v1.6 Journey's Dawn, click here (http://armello.com/updates) to return to the update hub.

(http://i.imgur.com/MwROmIx.png)

Hey folks! I'm extremely pumped about the announcement of v1.6 Journey's Dawn and I hope you are too. To announce the first major feature, LoG co-founder and director, Trent Kusters has written up all of the juicy details.

Quote
This is something that we're really excited to announce. Hero Skins were spoken about internally in excited tones from the earliest days of Armello's inception, but with the costs and overheads required to develop such a system and the skins themselves, it always fell into the 'nice-to-have' category. Thanks to the ongoing popularity of Armello and the opportunities granted by Steam's Item Store and Inventory functionality we have now created a system providing more ways for you to express yourselves and of course, roleplay with your favourite Heroes.

To coincide with v1.6 Journey's Dawn we'll be releasing four (4) Hero Skins for purchase at $6.99 USD each. They will be Steam Inventory Items and are by far  our most premium in-game items released to date. Each skin has been lovingly crafted in secret for months, with upgraded 3D models, new weapons, and all new textures, as well as brand new Hero Portraits, Chat Icons, 2D combat animations, annnnnnd a lil' dash of lore for good measure.

If you're still not sure whether you want to dive in and get that Hero Skin, don't sweat! We got you. These Hero Skins will be fully 'Tradeable' and 'Marketable' on the Steam Community Marketplace, so you're free to trade with pals (or strangers!) and on-sell them on the Marketplace.

Hero Skins will launch on February 1st (PT) and can be purchased directly from Armello's store on Steam(accessed from the Armello Store page on Steam). Hero Skins will not drop in-game.

Keep your eyes and ears to the ground as we'll be revealing each of the four Hero Skins (and which Heroes they'll be for!) along the path to the launch of Journey's Dawn. Obviously this is just the first of many reveals for this latest update for Armello, so stay tuned for what else is to come.


So there we have it! I'd love to see what you think about this glorious, long awaited feature!


Cheers,

<3 Darcy & the LoG Team
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Kletian999 on January 26, 2017, 12:20:13 AM
Technically off topic, but will 1.6 be the Bandit release as well?  If so, will the Black company skins be released at the same time?
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Pietoro on January 26, 2017, 07:49:24 AM
Welp, hero skins taps into one of my own serious weaknesses, so I look forward to seeing who gets them!
Fingers crossed for Barnaby! :D
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: krysh on January 26, 2017, 08:17:02 PM
Happy to see this, but sad to see absolutely no mention of consoles. Are the skins going to be released on PS4? It would be great if you mentioned all platforms you release the game on. This is one of the reason console players are losing trust I'm afraid.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: arnygood on January 27, 2017, 03:30:15 AM
Can't wait!
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Cinix on January 27, 2017, 12:04:09 PM
Hey, while this looks cool I'm going to be that guy who speaks up about it. 6.99 each? That seems a lot for a single skin and really off. I personally did feel a bit underwhelmed at the last 'dlc' content (seasons) however at that time I was ok throwing the extra money to help fund things. 6.99 per skin however seems just silly in price. I'd recommend charge a little more and bundle them together (Honestly I think 6.99 or 9.99 is still a bit much for just skins. ) or if you guys are dead set on selling them individually then lower that price PLEASE.

Do not fall into the pit falls of AAA gaming where they start to nickle and dime every player to see how much money they can get out of them. I don't think you guys are going down that road (yet), but I'd rather voice up now then later on after the point of no return. I remember a time when a 9.99 dlc would get you a LOT of content and the average dlc that was in the 9.99 to 19.99 range of price meant you where getting a lot of new stuff and that small packs where it's just new skins, maybe a few new items or small tweaks where 4.99 at the most.

I know it sounds like I'm over reacting, this is a small thing now. However like I said I want to make sure such voices are heard early on before the major issues come up.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Lisy Kane on January 27, 2017, 03:42:28 PM
Happy to see this, but sad to see absolutely no mention of consoles. Are the skins going to be released on PS4? It would be great if you mentioned all platforms you release the game on. This is one of the reason console players are losing trust I'm afraid.

Hey krysh! As our normal release pipeline goes, we're releasing v1.6 first on Steam and will work on any bug fixes before submitting it to console including Hero Skins!

Hey, while this looks cool I'm going to be that guy who speaks up about it. 6.99 each? That seems a lot for a single skin and really off.

Hey Cinix! Thanks for sending through your feedback about the pricing.  There was a lot of research and thought put into the final pricing of the Hero Skins and it won't be changing. Our hero skins aren't necessarily for everyone but we have put  a lot of craftsmanship (and coder..ship?) behind them in order to bring them to the world of Armello. You may see them as "a single skin" but there's a tonne of work done behind the scenes for these beauties.

We also love working on Armello and would love to keep bringing everyone more content so the DLC is a way of us being able to keep on doing so! This DLC may not be for you, but let's see what else we can come up with :)

As always we'll keep bringing out free content as well for those that can't justify the extra costs which, we totally understand (indie dev life!)
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: SBF1 on January 27, 2017, 04:11:10 PM
To be fair, I'm also not entirely keen on the price (it does seem a bit steep for just a skin), but at the same time, I imagine it's not a terrifically huge amount if you're the type to just buy skins for your "mains". I basically just play Thane and Magna (and the others just kinda sporadically), so I'd only end up buying Thane's skin and all that, etc. Still, for people who are more of the collect-em-all type, I can see it being an issue.

Still, aside from that, I'm happy to see what else you've got cooking!
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: krysh on January 27, 2017, 07:52:00 PM
Happy to see this, but sad to see absolutely no mention of consoles. Are the skins going to be released on PS4? It would be great if you mentioned all platforms you release the game on. This is one of the reason console players are losing trust I'm afraid.

Hey krysh! As our normal release pipeline goes, we're releasing v1.6 first on Steam and will work on any bug fixes before submitting it to console including Hero Skins!

Thanks for the answer. Just a feedback - I bet majority of console players are not aware of the process and only read the main news so it may be worth including your response in the main post so people wondering about consoles release would at least get some time estimate rather than nothing.

Also. It's $6.99 per ONE skin??? Seriously? I thought it's for all 4. If that craftsmanship and coder...ship brings some extra gameplay features then yes, it would be reasonable but if it is just a fancy looking skin, regardless of how much work has been put into it, this is seriously overpriced for one skin. Wow. As Cinix said - please don't fall into that AAA DLC thievery :(
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Flitz on January 28, 2017, 12:58:50 AM
While I do consider the skins to be a bit on the pricy side, that's just the state of the market when it comes to hero skins. I've never seen cheaper ones in games that offer skins for sale, in fact, only more expensive ones. I'd assume that making skins for Armello wasn't any less work than for a game like HotS or LoL, so why would LoG deserve to receive less in return? Keep in mind that this is a business, not a charity.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Kletian999 on January 28, 2017, 01:56:56 AM
Fact is, it costs "salary * hours" to make said skins.  Once they've made them, they've got to make it back with "price * quantity".  They know how many people bought their map skins.  They know how many bought Usurpers.  They know how many people buy shop only dice and keys.  They also know the theoretical maximum amount of purchases being close to the number of still active players.  I'm going to guess the higher than expected price is from expecting a lower sales volume.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Lynx on January 28, 2017, 04:48:34 AM
While I do consider the skins to be a bit on the pricy side, that's just the state of the market when it comes to hero skins. I've never seen cheaper ones in games that offer skins for sale, in fact, only more expensive ones. I'd assume that making skins for Armello wasn't any less work than for a game like HotS or LoL, so why would LoG deserve to receive less in return? Keep in mind that this is a business, not a charity.
Because it's a slippery slope for pay-to-play games when a cosmetic set costs you more than the base game. On the Kickstarter they also say they intend to offer future cards and quests via in-app purchases as well.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Cinix on January 28, 2017, 07:30:19 AM
While I do consider the skins to be a bit on the pricy side, that's just the state of the market when it comes to hero skins. I've never seen cheaper ones in games that offer skins for sale, in fact, only more expensive ones. I'd assume that making skins for Armello wasn't any less work than for a game like HotS or LoL, so why would LoG deserve to receive less in return? Keep in mind that this is a business, not a charity.
Because it's a slippery slope for pay-to-play games when a cosmetic set costs you more than the base game. On the Kickstarter they also say they intend to offer future cards and quests via in-app purchases as well.


This is the point I was making. Also for LoL they do actually pump out the skins for cheap, they sometimes just pallet swap and add a few bloom affects. HotS and LoG just followed LoL's example and that's why their prices are high.

I'm not saying it didn't take work for Armello however you should NOT compare your prices to free to play games or games that have already gotten attention for bad player manipulation. Games like that don't make their money off the average player, they make their money off the whales. Players who become addicted to the game. That's how most FtP games make a lot of their money in that market.

I understand that work goes in when you actually add new animations in and all does take time. But I stand by my statement that 6.99 for a single skin isn't ok. When all four skins together cost more then your game that's a problem and it sends a BAD message for new players.

Not saying paying for skins is bad but the industry has gotten fast and loose with it abusing it and their players. While the Armello skins from what we've been told are MORE then the average skin it still is a skin and it should NOT be more then 5 dollars each. If you went 9.99 for the entire pack, I'd still think it's a bit much BUT I think it wouldn't be as bad as spending more then 20.00 to get all four skins. FOUR SKINS! That's not ok.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Lynx on January 28, 2017, 07:52:50 AM
Exactly!

I've also heard the argument of "If you don't want them, just ignore it!" Thing is we will have to see other players using them when we can't because we don't want to spend money.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Cinix on January 28, 2017, 08:05:59 AM
I should also say I want to buy these skins. I WANT to throw more money to support the game even if I wont use most of the skins.
I want to be able to justify the expense though and right now I can't. I can afford it, but i can't justify giving in more to this bad business practice that has ruined several other games for me.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: dragoncrescent on January 28, 2017, 08:59:14 AM
I'm excited for them! It seems like from the promo art that Amber may be getting something cool, which I'm all for! Also, can't wait to see whether we're getting some new cards...

As for the price, it's actually about par for the price of cosmetic items. I mean, you look at Heroes of the Storm, and their $7 ~ $14 skins. The only game where cosmetics flow like wine are DotA and TF2, both of which are backed directly by Steam. I mean, they're vanity  items - something not necessary for you to thrive and win a game. I'm vaguely reminded of a comic some artist on dA did once about the common complaint "You should lower your commission prices!" The response was basically along the lines of 'Well, this is what I do for a living. I need to eat too, and hey - feel free not to buy if you can't agree to the prices. It's not like groceries, or some necessity - art is a luxury item."
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Cinix on January 28, 2017, 09:24:34 AM
I'm excited for them! It seems like from the promo art that Amber may be getting something cool, which I'm all for! Also, can't wait to see whether we're getting some new cards...

As for the price, it's actually about par for the price of cosmetic items. I mean, you look at Heroes of the Storm, and their $7 ~ $14 skins. The only game where cosmetics flow like wine are DotA and TF2, both of which are backed directly by Steam. I mean, they're vanity  items - something not necessary for you to thrive and win a game. I'm vaguely reminded of a comic some artist on dA did once about the common complaint "You should lower your commission prices!" The response was basically along the lines of 'Well, this is what I do for a living. I need to eat too, and hey - feel free not to buy if you can't agree to the prices. It's not like groceries, or some necessity - art is a luxury item."


Oh boy you brought the 'artists' into this. Sorry but especially regarding DA and other online art communities. Don't take their words. I've watched so many of them flounder and fail in person (yes I've know a number of them and I used to do art commissions on other sites. I understand the price game of art commissions very well) because they didn't budge on their price to adjust for their market and over charged customers. As for your game examples, they still feed of whales as they are higher in price do to the nature of the games. You don't BUY HotS you get to play it for free then pay for new additions or stuff in game. Their prices are higher because that is the ONLY source of income from the game.

That's all I'm saying on that. Back to the topic of Armello.

For the skins in Armello we're NOT asking for 0.99 skins, we're asking that for 4 skins you don't spend more then what it cost to get the game itself. That's what doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: SBF1 on January 28, 2017, 09:49:53 AM
I dunno if the commission thing is really the best comparison (and I say that as someone who understands and has commissioned people quite a number of times, eheh), but I'm still generally rolling with the majority on this one. Even in proper paid games, at least the ones I've played, skins/costumes/whatnot are still generally around that same price - the difference is that you paid something like 40 or 60 bucks for the base game instead of 20.

Take ESO, for instance. Single costumes in that can range either 500 monies or 1000 monies, and usually that means you'll buy 8 to 15 bucks worth of monies in order to afford it and have a little extra monies.  And that's just for an extra 3D costume; sure, it needs to fit and meld right with the various character-creation sliders, but that's about all it entails.

Armello's skins might only be a little cheaper than that, but consider this: it's an entirely new 3D model (I presume), an entirely new portrait for the character, and probably new battle sprites on top of that.  It's a lot more effort put into a skin compared to costumes in an MMO or whatnot, and it's cheaper than an MMO's costumes to boot, even if only a little.

All that said, I still stand by my initial remark; most people are probably just going to buy a skin for the character they primarily play (Thane, in my case), and that's it. It's not a case of telling people "oh, just ignore the other skins, it's okay!", it's a case of telling people "why would you buy a skin for a character you don't play?". I understand the tendency of some people to want to "collect" skins (especially the roleplaying type in MMOs, of course), but there comes a time where it's less about a price point and more about the ability to control yourself.

I'm not expecting that argument to convince anyone who's on the opposite end of this debate, considering most people get really uppity and antsy and snarky about this subject as a whole nowadays (and it's not unfounded, I know), but still. My two cents.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Cinix on January 28, 2017, 10:00:38 AM
Armello's skins might only be a little cheaper than that, but consider this: it's an entirely new 3D model (I presume), an entirely new portrait for the character, and probably new battle sprites on top of that.  It's a lot more effort put into a skin compared to costumes in an MMO or whatnot, and it's cheaper than an MMO's costumes to boot, even if only a little.

All that said, I still stand by my initial remark; most people are probably just going to buy a skin for the character they primarily play (Thane, in my case), and that's it. It's not a case of telling people "oh, just ignore the other skins, it's okay!", it's a case of telling people "why would you buy a skin for a character you don't play?". I understand the tendency of some people to want to "collect" skins (especially the roleplaying type in MMOs, of course), but there comes a time where it's less about a price point and more about the ability to control yourself.

I'm not expecting that argument to convince anyone who's on the opposite end of this debate, considering most people get really uppity and antsy and snarky about this subject as a whole nowadays (and it's not unfounded, I know), but still. My two cents.


I actually agree with you and understand most people won't buy all of them. My personal recommendation is that each skin should be about 5 dollars.

HOWEVER:
As after re-reading (Even my own responses) I realized my original point got lost and even off track.
I can live with the prices on this as I'm sure most can (Personally I would've liked to see the Skins brought down to about 5 dollars each). I was speaking up more to draw attention and make sure eyes stay on prices and practices because I don't want LOG to start taking on too many of the bad AAA gaming practices. That's it, small instances like this are no big deal on their own, it's the collective direction I want LOG and the players who support the company to keep an eye on. That's all. That and dialog between creators and their audience is a good thing. If a creator only receives negative responses OR they only receive nothing but praise, then creators can fail/leave, things can stagnate or  bad practices happen. Sometimes a combination. Dialogs are important to get voices from more then one view point and make a company great by reading and learning from/considering multiple views from their audience.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: SBF1 on January 28, 2017, 10:14:25 AM
Fair enough, hah. It's not the first time I've seen this sort of discussion get bogged down and derailed by accident. :v I agree on the price bit too - even though I said I'd probably buy Thane's skin, I think 4.99 would have been the ideal price point to make it the most appealing for everyone.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Cinix on January 28, 2017, 10:23:33 AM
Fair enough, hah. It's not the first time I've seen this sort of discussion get bogged down and derailed by accident. :v I agree on the price bit too - even though I said I'd probably buy Thane's skin, I think 4.99 would have been the ideal price point to make it the most appealing for everyone.

Yup also at 4.99 it'd attract the attention of people who might normally pass it by. You increase the number of people who will purchase it. In addition at 4.99 you get people more willing to maybe pick up that extra skin for the character you don't main but you still enjoy.

Also glad to know it's happened before. The wonderful methods of derailment :P in this case the people jumping onto the extremes bandwagon. Reason my last response brought up that I was NOT talking about .99 skins :P
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Mcksalg on January 28, 2017, 10:30:28 PM
Im  not a fan of cosmetic dlc, but I am a fan of Armello and support LoG. Gaming market has changed and this is what the new model is like so we have to deal. I just find it funny that a few years ago this sort of content would of been free unlockables. Times have changed thx to cost of living and mobile gaming market, so I get it still ppl don't have to like it. What I find interesting is that this is being introduced as a System so that implies there will be alot more, wonder what the final skin number will be for each hero.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Pietoro on January 29, 2017, 10:46:12 AM
Barnaby is my main char so I'm only interested in his skin, really. I hope it's cool. :3

I won't be buying all of them so wev.

Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: CrazyBob05 on January 29, 2017, 12:02:14 PM
This sounds awesome.  But I dunno'...  Did the Xbox One port even get the Art of Treason  update patch yet?
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Across-The-Board on January 29, 2017, 02:58:59 PM
As a world-weary Team Fortress 2 player I look forward to my eventual glowing banana hat for Mercurio!

No but seriously, I look forward to these skins a lot. Sana with leaves in her hair looks so cute :)
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Kletian999 on January 30, 2017, 12:57:41 AM
Since "supply" is infinite, demand will raise with lowered price until demand saturation.  LoG has done some math and predicted that 6.99 maximizes the Demand/Price function.  They might be wrong, especially when you consider it looks like 4 skins is going to cost more than 4 new heroes and 4 new rings.  I'd love to get their insights into how much they calculated.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Darcy Smith on January 30, 2017, 05:56:56 PM
Hey folks, thank you for sharing your thoughts on our pricing. This sort of honest feedback is super helpful.

I just want to ask for clarification around why you feel that four hero skins shouldn't equate to more than the game itself? Is that just a gut feeling?

In terms of hero skins, they vary from game to game, typically starting at a few dollars and topping out at prices of $35(see DOTA 2). These are definitely a premium product constructed by world class artists, so we feel that the pricing is fair. Unfortunately I'm going to have to make the same argument that's been referenced already - these skins have no mechanical impact, and are purely visual.

On the other end of this transaction, it definitely doesn't feel like a "money grab". We're a profitable company and we're lucky enough to be in a situation to make more Armello content and maybe even kick off a new title in the future but I want to assure you that it's not all cigars and fur coats in the studio.

Remember that the free updates that we provide are only really free for you guys. They definitely aren't free for us! This way we can have a model where after buying the core game, you can experience a game made and maintained with love and every few months we'll shake things up and add some new rad stuff. If you're in a position to buy some extra trimmings that you so desire, that's great too!

Once again, I really appreciate the message you're sending through and thanks for taking the time to reach out. I hope you see where we are coming from!


Cheers,

<3 Darcy
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Kletian999 on January 31, 2017, 07:55:53 AM
The best way I can explain it, is you've demonstrated a clear increase of "price per effort" in the eyes of the community.  This is not an inherently wrong thing to do, but this kind of reaction should be expected.

Is it possible it "cost more" to make these new skins (because of expensive artists) than it did to design, model, draw, code, and balance 4 new heroes out of whole cloth?  Perhaps, but some folk won't believe it.  Unlike physical goods where we can say "this statue was made out of marble instead of plaster" quality of construction is far more obscure in the digital realm.  This leads into two "paths of dissatisfaction"
1. People who don't understand/perceive the extra value of the "more expensive effort".  I can't tell the difference between a 60 fps game and a 30 fps game, or 1080p from 800p resolution for instance because my visual sense is very unrefined for example.
2. People who understand the reason for the extra price, but resent luxury.  They feel if you had just used your old artists or similar artists at the old price, you'd have something basically as good but cheaper.   They expect a new skin to cost X, and anything done to make it more expensive than X is a wasteful luxury.  A Car costs X; giving it 4 wheel drive makes it more expensive but in a way that's practical.  Giving a car mega speakers, gold hubcaps, and that hydrolic lifting I see in rap videos also makes a car more expensive, but in such a way that is frivelous and can actually anger the outside observer. 

This is a weird economic paradox.  People resent first class tickets and Opportunist fare for airlines, yet because airlines do so it allows in advance coach tickets to be cheaper.  Likewise by selling really expensive skins you can afford free future development. 

People would like the new looks.  People enjoy the sense of having everything.  When you create something "luxurious", unusually expensive to help cover the fact that "not everyone will want it", you upset the people "who want it, but not that much".

Bottom line, I think you underestimated demand and priced it away from sweet spot on the price/demand curve.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Mcksalg on January 31, 2017, 10:16:06 AM
If this price point keeps more free content (cards and rings) coming then I am all for it, like I said not everyone has to buy it. I take it more like a badge of honor that we support you and enjoy your product.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Lynx on January 31, 2017, 11:23:33 AM
Cards are planned microtransactions per the Kickstarter page :(
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Kletian999 on January 31, 2017, 11:49:30 AM
Where do you get that from?  This game can't support player specific cards.  Also the kickstarter is almost 3 years old- even if you were reading it correctly, the game has changed.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Darcy Smith on January 31, 2017, 02:13:51 PM
The best way I can explain it, is you've demonstrated a clear increase of "price per effort" in the eyes of the community.  This is not an inherently wrong thing to do, but this kind of reaction should be expected.

Oh yeah, I mean I'm not shocked by the reaction at all, I'm just probing for more information on the topic. I was looking for clarification on why people felt a certain way.

The concept of "price per effort" is one that many studios are moving away from and it's somewhat true for us too. If we followed that ideal, Armello as a base game would likely cost a lot more. I mean, the way we could most accurately implement a "price per effort" system is probably through paid subscription, which we'd never do, of course.

I'm extremely happy and proud of how we've managed the pricing in Armello. The pricepoint is very reasonable for this day and age, and devoted players can wheel and deal dice skins to earn credit if they so choose. This credit can potentially pay for DLC or retrospectively cover the game if you're motivated and/or mega lucky.

Hope you're all as excited as I am!


Cheers,

<3 Darcy
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Lynx on January 31, 2017, 03:36:34 PM
Where do you get that from?  This game can't support player specific cards.  Also the kickstarter is almost 3 years old- even if you were reading it correctly, the game has changed.

From the FAQ section
Quote
Will Armello have IAPs (in-app purchases)...?

Yes! We’re building Armello to support future expansions and add-ons so we can keep bringing you new Heroes and new stories. If we can deliver new Quests, Card Packs, etc, we’ll make those available as in-app purchases too.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Mcksalg on January 31, 2017, 04:14:11 PM
Lol cant have cards as dlc then this turns the game into pay to win, and would kill the game. Cosmetic dlc is fine but when you split your player base thats bad, lol.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Darcy Smith on January 31, 2017, 05:03:50 PM
Yeah cards won't be in the format of DLC. That info is no longer relevant!
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Nasshnarah on February 01, 2017, 05:28:55 AM
A small question - will we get a proper showcase of the skins once the patch is out?
A video or set of animated gifs, presenting all the changes: the portrait, model, 3d and 2d animations?
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Darcy Smith on February 01, 2017, 11:50:25 AM
Yeah! You'll be able to check them out in all their glory in detail once they are released. Hold tight for that!


Cheers,

<3 Darcy
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: CrazyBob05 on February 02, 2017, 12:35:26 AM
I got lazy and didn't read over the original post so I have to ask.  Are skins only available to vanilla characters or will there be skins for Bandit Clan and Usurpers as well as any possible DLC characters that might come down the road?
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Kletian999 on February 02, 2017, 12:59:03 AM
This batch is for Vanilla.  The Bandits were promised backer only skins a long time ago.  I imagine the economic success of the vanilla pack will determine if other heroes get skins.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: melkathi on February 02, 2017, 08:57:06 AM
Comparing the hero skins to the price of the Usurper DLC, the skins seem a tad overpriced to me. It also makes me worry what possible future heroes will cost.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: SBF1 on February 02, 2017, 11:10:03 AM
Okay, so! Here's a couple brief thoughts I'll toss out, now that I played a multiplayer game with some folks using the new skins:

Visually, the models look great. There's a lot more detail packed into them compared to any of the other characters so far, which almost makes them feel more distinct by comparison. I also got a chuckle out of Thane's sword's runes glowing at night (along with his pauldron), if mostly because I threw the into that fanfic I wrote and it feels funny that I predicted it somehow. :U

As for their battle sprites, they're pretty good, but unfortunately seem to have a weird case of the blurries. Maybe I'm just going insane (but I'm pretty sure I'm not), but they seemed to both be a touch smaller and a bit more blurry than their default vectors, and it stands out the most whenever they're up in a battle against other characters, whose vectors are crisper. Not sure if it's a bug or just something that had to be done to get the skins to work, but it's weird all the same.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: DarkeSword on February 08, 2017, 03:22:38 AM
A small question - will we get a proper showcase of the skins once the patch is out?
A video or set of animated gifs, presenting all the changes: the portrait, model, 3d and 2d animations?
I'd also like to see some proper promo material for the skins. I don't mind the price but I'd prefer to see what I'm buying first.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Kletian999 on February 08, 2017, 04:34:08 AM
SurefireTactics,  aka Mister UPS man has a youtube video to show them off. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoImzq-qEXI
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: krysh on February 09, 2017, 12:52:18 AM
I have to say, the skins do look quite nice but after watching the showcase in the above video, they really aren't so special to charge $7 for each. I know that there has been an extra care being put into creating those but I'm talking from the customer/player point of view: These skins are absolutely not worth the price and I'm still really surprised that LoG decided to take this "drastic" DLC route in further development.

Started with new characters, which is absolutely fine because they add something new to the gameplay and expand the game itself. Then we got board skins. Really nice addition but don't change the gameplay. Now we have skins which from player's point of view are very nice but don't add anything to the game and are sold for a third the price of the game itself per ONE character.

With this approach of selling new content, while the game being in the state it is (constant crashes that get worse with every release) you can't be surprised people are starting to be annoyed and lose faith in Armello. I know this may sound silly but just check the above videos likes/dislikes ratio and the few comments it has.

Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Georgesquares on February 09, 2017, 03:59:30 AM
So I just want to say-- compared to other games, 7 dollars per skin is remarkably cheap considering how much labor goes into making skins. As a backer, I got map skins and the 4 new champions for free, which is remarkably generous. I wanted skins for characters, as optional cosmetics that do not affect the game play, and I'm more than happy to support that with my wallet.

I really want a playable weasel character but I understand it's optional to the core game play and if it's not going to make money then it's probably not going to happen. It's something that's nice but not necessary just like these skins. Considering how much constant content they put into the game and how much freebies they throw at backers, I think the backlash is more or less just coming from people who don't get how a games business works. There was early demand for skins, and now skins are going to be a thing, and I think that's developers listening to community feedback.

I think that's nice.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: krysh on February 10, 2017, 09:15:33 PM
Georgesquares but this is something you probably don't realize. Majority of players don't care how the games business works. And why should they? They play games to unwind and have fun, it's up to the companies to know how that business works. And when people see a game they love starting to release overpriced DLCs, they simply lose faith in that company.

They won't care how much work and detail went to creating new skins. They just see a new skin. It's that simple. I was praising Armello everywhere I could but now I simply cannot do that because from my (player) point of view, the game is full of bugs that are getting worse while new expensive DLCs are being released. And that's what annoys the players.

Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Hansel on February 12, 2017, 06:22:09 AM
I think a Jackalope skin for Barnaby in the next wave could be really special. Antlers on a helmet is a very good look.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: williamosborn on February 17, 2017, 07:19:52 AM
Awesome! I absolutely love Thane's hero skin! :) Well done devs!
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Cinix on February 20, 2017, 05:32:50 PM
So here I am again.

Where are those NEW animations you said where in there?
Finally got to see someone using a skin in game and 'ehem. You 100% pallet swapped River and added a few TINY changes to the model. Nothing that required new actual animation on it. In addition the fighting 'animation' also just seems like some color changes and minor alterations as well.

While normally I would be fine with this but you're charging more then what Warframe charges for their alternate skins and items some of which often add in new physics items and affects as well.  You have over price your pallet swap skins LoG and if you did market test theses you did NOT do enough.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Lynx on February 21, 2017, 10:03:45 AM
So here I am again.

Where are those NEW animations you said where in there?
Finally got to see someone using a skin in game and 'ehem. You 100% pallet swapped River and added a few TINY changes to the model. Nothing that required new actual animation on it. In addition the fighting 'animation' also just seems like some color changes and minor alterations as well.

While normally I would be fine with this but you're charging more then what Warframe charges for their alternate skins and items some of which often add in new physics items and affects as well.  You have over price your pallet swap skins LoG and if you did market test theses you did NOT do enough.

Do you know if the Thane skin ever got addressed?
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Kletian999 on February 21, 2017, 02:58:03 PM
Yes, they said they had no intention of correcting the mirrored effect since it means redrawing everything.
Title: Re: v1.6 Journey's Dawn Feature Reveal - Hero Skin System
Post by: Cinix on April 08, 2017, 11:42:36 AM
Not dead yet in my attempts to try and talk sense into LoG!


LoG I have some very important things that you should've found in your market research when deciding on your price point for skins. It seems that you where looking at free to play games or others that use the free to play model (even if not) rather then looking at normal full priced games.

So having said that I'd like to share the following. Screen shots taken from the Play Station Store for the DLC content of a game that is fairly recent called Disgaea 5. This game has a host of dlc content and I've picked a screen shot for each type that also shows their prices. They have MULTIPLE dlcs of each type.

So lets get started.

(http://i.imgur.com/gTDfELI.jpg)
This first DLC is a PACK!
Contains 3 characters and a quest that has 3 maps and limited cutscenes (scenes using in game sprites + dialog boxes or using multiple still images + dialog boxes).
Each character includes:
In Game Sprite
In Game Sprite Animations (Movement, Hit, Attacking, ect)
Character Art
Unique Skills (Each of which is fully animated, one of the ones for the character Zetta is especially long)
Unique Traits
Voice Acting
Alternate Character Color Schemes

(http://i.imgur.com/RGMRiJB.jpg)
Single Character DLC: This dlc only adds a single new character that can be used and nothing else.
In Game Sprite
In Game Sprite Animations (Movement, Hit, Attacking, ect)
Character Art
Unique Skills (Each of which is fully animated)
Unique Traits
Voice Acting
Alternate Character Color Schemes

And we come to the last one:
(http://i.imgur.com/HurXSEs.jpg)
This one adds in one 'character' that is just a small alteration to an existing unit type in the game. Uses the same animations, color palette and all as normal Prinny model however this character contains nearly every spell in the game so it can teach it to other characters and contains a few unique traits.
It's free of charge.


That's how you do character packs and skins. Note that Disgaea flat out doesn't do skins. They just give you a new character. While I will say their larger pack that has 3 characters + Maps + Story + Quest is cheap as they only charge an extra 2 dollars compared to a single character, their market practices have garnered a lot of positive customer feed back and MORE people buying their product and then sinking more money in through DLCs.

As a side note. DLC content that is higher tends to add more or be in smaller quantity as in the game is only going to be releasing 2 maybe 3 FULL DLCs (Whether that's new armies for strategy games, new quest for story games, new maps for FPS ect).