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Armello => Armello Development => Topic started by: Blake Mizzi on July 01, 2016, 04:37:39 PM

Title: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Blake Mizzi on July 01, 2016, 04:37:39 PM
This post is relevant to the features introduced in v1.4 Battle Tides. For all of the details, see the master post here (http://leagueofgeeks.com/forums/index.php?topic=2495.0).
(http://i.imgur.com/UxgxdH2.png)

Dear battle hardened Armellians and newcomers alike,

We have toiled long and hard at what might seem like a small but significant enhancement to Armello’s Battle System! The crux of the upgrade to Armello's battle system was to deliver a more robust and holistic system that makes more sense to players, gives players more control, gives us the new ways to add new equipment and future proofs the system for more add-ons.

So what has changed;  We have added two NEW types of special dice to complement the existing ‘pierce dice’; These three special battle dice are:

Pierce – Penetrates and “pierces” an opponent’s shield to still cause damage, and destroys blocking shield.
Reflect – Blocks the incoming hit and bounces back the damage to the attacker, which may be blocked again by their own defences.
Poison – If this hit isn’t blocked and thus causes a wound to the target, it will “poison” the victim.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/26BRC530X7Qrb2eoU/giphy.gif)

A new general special rule applies to all special dice from here forward; IF two special dice collide they will cancel each other out and behave as their base dice type. Thus a ‘pierce’ dice meeting a ‘reflect’ dice won’t pierce the ‘reflect’ and the ‘reflect’ won’t bounce back a ‘piercing’ dice.
 
It’s very very exciting for us to bring these new special dice effects to Armello’s battle system, it gives us more design room to create interesting new equipment and gives players new tools to counter heroes with huge amounts of body, or thick shields.

To facilitate the introduction of more special dice and to give us even more room to create new equipment we have made a very subtle but significant change to how special dice behave;

Special dice like the old ‘pierce’ dice now won’t automatically shuffle to the front of the attack queue. Instead special dice queue in the normal order and sequence which generated them, thus a card awarded locked ‘pierce’ dice locks in the attack queue before burnt card dice, and before rolled ‘pierce’ dice. Any normal attack dice, from locking, burning or rolling will also take their normal queuing position.

Basically dice now queue in the order they were generated regardless if they are special or normal – we’re not playing favourites any more ;) – The dice order is equipped card dice, burnt card dice, then rolled dice.

This is a small but significant change – let me give you an example; In the old system, Thane’s hero power which awarded a ‘pierce’ die upon burning a sword card, would shuffle that attack die to the front of the attack queue, but in the new system it won’t, the die will take its place in the queue like any other attack dice.

“Whoa!! This isn’t as powerful as the old system”, you might say! ‘I want my ‘pierces’ first in the attack queue!” well…

Remember that special dice now counter each other and a special dice’s position in the attack and defence queue can make a big difference. Also consider you now have full control over the order of your dice queue through equipment selection, you have the ability to design the best battle builds to counter other players’ builds. Whether you choose to equip items with more locked swords or equipment that give you more dice is now a more important decision. Do you want armour that gives you piles of locked shield dice? Or maybe you don’t, as you want to focus on getting reflect dice to activate early? Equipment that awards special dice effects on dice rolls or by burning cards can be used in interesting combinations with other cards and hero abilities.

This has a significant flow on effect with regards to what equipment is now best for different heroes to equip; Take Thane: A Warhammer for example takes 1 fight dice from Thane and locks in 2 swords, which take their place in the queue before Thane can burn any sword cards and lock in ‘piercing’ dice. The third attack slot is still a powerful and useful slot and likely to still encounter an opponent’s shields, but is it better than the first or second slot? Is the first slot worse if your opponent has a locked in ‘reflect’ card? Is the Battle Axe which gives Thane an extra die in battles and doesn’t add dice to the attack queue before Thane has a chance to burn swords a better card for Thane? With the Battle Axe equipped and a healthy mix of cards Thane can burn his attacks in the order that he now wishes them to strike!

Certainly there are now better and worse combinations of equipment with regards to different heroes than there were before and this is a good thing. Equipment choice is now more meaningful. Your combination of equipment and your decisions made in combat, when to burn or not to burn cards has more impact than before. This directly means there is more room for skilled and experienced players to find mastery in Armello and have direct impact in battle. There are now no weird queue jumping dice exceptions to the standard rule. Far more cards are now being burned in battle and this means that more cards are flowing through players hands. We understand that this subtle change has significant impact to the feel of combat and the entire game, overtime as we add more equipment cards these changes will make more and more sense. Know that these changes have enabled us to enhance Armello’s battle system and take it to the next level, our play tests have produced exciting results. We know it will take a few games to adjust your thinking to the new system and we’re excited to hear your ideas for the best builds for each hero and counter builds. We’re also excited to bring more powerful special dice effects to Armello, we know these effects are game changers and aren’t going to be easy to pull off, now it’s up to your planning and skill to make these plays.


Sharpen your steel,
Buckle on your armour,
Go forth and bring battle to your foes,
For the war for the throne just got real. 
 


Warmaster Blake



Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 01, 2016, 10:43:47 PM
Most times, I would WANT my piercing dice to cancel my opponents reflect.  I really feel removing priority for special dice is a mistake.   Here's my reasons and maybe I'll change my mind, but I have to say what juts out as obvious right now:

1. Overall, this change just further penalizes the equipment of weapons because it'll make piercing miss when it never did before.  The Battle Axe is the WEAKEST weapon in the game mathematically and should only be equipped when there is no other option.  Thane's wits almost never exceed his fight so your scenario doesn't really pan out. 
There are no cards with static piercing dice yet, and the current pierce equipment is rolled dice, which is why the priority system was so important.

2. It weakens the piercing effect and weakens the reflect effect (because no dice positioning is going to make it worth no longer wearing armor with the 3/1 Hit block ratio on rolls, it's too variable.)

3. Without negative priority, Static or Burned poison dice will almost never land.  The cases where you opponent doesn't have many shields will probably be the cases they die without poison.

4. The order you get items (or choose to equip them) will now slightly effect the outcome of battles.  Unless you get all your items in a bunch, it'll be very hard to make informed decisions here; and the "right answer" will be dependent on what your opponent wears too.

5. People will burn cards in battle because of the rewards, or fervent desire to lose cards.  Changing the dice priority I only see influencing burn volume by trying to push the poison dice as late as possible.  I don't consider "people burning cards they normally wouldn't just to get their equipment to work properly" to be a positive thing.

6. Honestly, I feel the lack of priority is going to be LESS intuitive to new players.  When they here pierce dice, they will wonder why no piercing happened when the piercings were too late.  When they have poison, they'll wonder why it didn't proc when hits outdid shields.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: The Observer on July 01, 2016, 10:54:28 PM
Note to self: never equip hand cannons or longbow ever again.

Nothing's going to change for my setup. Stack shields and maybe 1 offensive item. Done. In fact, stacking shields are even more important now that poison dice are around and piercing has been nerfed.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Biologist on July 02, 2016, 12:44:43 AM
I'm going to have to play a few matches with the new ruleset before making sweeping judgements about it, but here are some of my initial thoughts.

Poison attacks: Not sure yet how useful these will be. We have new characters and new items on the way, so maybe interactions with poison will affect its usefulness, but currently I'm skeptical. Generally I want to take out my opponent as a direct result of combat so that I immediately remove them from play and get a prestige reward, not cripple them so they have time to get revenge with a spell before slowly dying the next turn (assuming they don't cure the poison or camp in place). Yes, I've annoyed them with my poison, but I could have gotten a kill with a different piece of gear.

Also, sharing some of Kletian's concern about poison dice and queuing. If I understand correctly, using the Poisoned Dagger shown above, if I burn a Rot card I'll get a poison attack after my equipment dice but before my rolled dice. Now, I commonly run into opponents with 5+ locked Shields from various sources. If I have, say, two locked swords from equipment, that means I need to burn three cards before burning a Rot card. That would require me to burn a full hand of cards if I have 4 Wits, and that's assuming I don't have good reasons not to burn the other cards. That's in a best-case scenario where my opponent burns and rolls no additional shields. Not to mention if I have such specific Rot-cost gear equipped I'm probably a Rot Lord and would rather have just gotten a Rot roll to begin with. Regarding the card itself, it's rough giving up any kind of locked offense/defense for a dubious benefit, which is why I rarely see or use the Sailor's Lantern/Spy Glass combo in game.

Piercing: I think it fares better than Poison, though obviously not as well as pre-patch. Most of my piercing comes from Thane's hero power, which is controllable and, since opponents often  have lots of shields, should still be useful even in the 4th or 5th slot. Also it's very controllable. The piercing gear is a little trickier. Let's say I have Hand Cannons and I'm not Thane (for simplicity's sake), and I want to use my piercing effectively. I'm actually better off not locking in sword dice with gear, and instead going for shields/more dice rolls so my piercing procs have a chance to matter. Also burning non-shield cards has to be carefully considered.

Reflect: Sounds like a "Thorns" type effect, which I know some on these forums have been suggesting. Maybe we finally get that hedgehog-themed cloak everyone's been clamoring for?  ;) As for assessing the effect, it's too early for me to tell. It does give at least a  little incentive to "waste" poison attacks in order to cancel the reflect effect though, making poison indirectly more useful.

Of course, all my theorycrafting and speculation disregards the fact that gear acquisition is totally random. Obviously you always have to make the best of what you get, and there's strategy involved there, but you can't exactly go into a match thinking "Okay, I'm going to get a Poison Dagger, Hand Cannons, and Battle Armor (or whatever). Still, I'm sure this change has been put through its paces already, and these are just my initial reactions. Looking forward to seeing how it pans out!
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: L4g34s on July 02, 2016, 02:10:31 AM
 Unless getting a kill from poison gives you any kind of prestige the poisoned dagger quite sucks, considering that you have to burn a rot it won't be that efective if you aren't corrupted, so to use it properly you need to be corrupted, you need to land the poison attack, and you need to in the first place have a rot card to burn, but considering the cards with a rot symbol its probably a bad idea since most f them give you rot, with exceptions of hot rot wine(and you want it to kill the king without risking getting attacked), cursed lands(and that would be a good card to burn), dark influence(and you want to use it on yourself to get even more rot), rotten fog(another good card to burn with it), Bane's claw(third good card to burn). So there are 3 cards that would be good to burn when you have poisoned knife, the cards with rot symbol not mentioned here actually give you rot, so it would be a no go.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: trashspawn45 on July 02, 2016, 02:41:19 AM
Unless getting a kill from poison gives you any kind of prestige the poisoned dagger quite sucks, considering that you have to burn a rot it won't be that efective if you aren't corrupted, so to use it properly you need to be corrupted, you need to land the poison attack, and you need to in the first place have a rot card to burn, but considering the cards with a rot symbol its probably a bad idea since most f them give you rot, with exceptions of hot rot wine(and you want it to kill the king without risking getting attacked), cursed lands(and that would be a good card to burn), dark influence(and you want to use it on yourself to get even more rot), rotten fog(another good card to burn with it), Bane's claw(third good card to burn). So there are 3 cards that would be good to burn when you have poisoned knife, the cards with rot symbol not mentioned here actually give you rot, so it would be a no go.

#1. Burning Rot cards in combat doesn't give you rot. I don't know where you're getting that from.

#2. The item says itself that if you burn a rot card, it will give you 1 poisoned hit. It does not say you have to be corrupted for that to take place. The card usually takes precedence over game rules.

#3. Who says you never want Rot? Rot victory is something you can do.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 02, 2016, 03:05:14 AM
1. He means, you'd rather cast the card then play them.  Because for a Rot player, a cost of rot is free.

2.  Yeah simple mistake of Lg4's part.  Still, you need to equip the dagger to get the benefit, so you are likely infected from equipping it.  Sudden Idea for card: Wyldleaf gloves- next Rot costed card you play incurs no rot. 
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Combat on July 02, 2016, 06:12:46 AM
3. Without negative priority, Static or Burned poison dice will almost never land.  The cases where you opponent doesn't have many shields will probably be the cases they die without poison.

Negative priority does exist though

1) Your earlier equipment is slotted in first, so if you had a Shining steel sword in place 1 and (Supposing it existed) a card that gave 2 piercing fight in slot 2, you would get 1 normal attack then 2 piercing as number 2 and 3 in the attack row

if the opponent had a card that gave reflect in slot 1 then it would reflect back to you and then you would pierce their first 2 defence afterwards

2)You just burn other cards before you use the rot card to activate the poison, then you are changing the place that the poison will take place, therefore allowing you to potentially dodge the opponents shields and get the hit in, as was said in other posts even just using it to counter reflect is also viable, has more variety in it than some are giving credit for currently I feel

The system give more opportunity to fake out the opponent and encourages bigger hand sizes to allow for more flexibility

That's actually the biggest problem I feel, it is yet another mechanic that encourages the use of the wits amulet over most others, as the most commonly seen amulet in play (from my experience at least) I feel that something should be done to make others a bit better as wits of best for a lot of strategies in the game, that might be a discussion for another time though
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Vryl on July 02, 2016, 06:40:56 AM
I'd have to agree that the special dice will be weaker now... but frankly, I'm fine with that.  Yeah, it'd be nice to take your hand cannons into a fight, sure that if you roll swords then the opponent will be damaged.  But at the same time, most heroes - note that *most* - are not unstoppable juggernauts.

Easy example for you.  You've got those hand cannons and, oh, six fight.  On average you'd expect to get a sword each battle, so let's just say that's what you've rolled.  For the sake of this example, your other equipment gives you two swords and a shield.  Now let's take two swords, a piercing strike and two more miscellaneous damage-dealing rolls and see how they work in two situations.

First situation: Amber is running around with a single set shield and four dice.  Most likely your equipment will impact all the blocking she can do, and your piercing die is wasted.  On the other hand, that's still three damage. Amber is hurting, or dead if she was already injured, after that single attack.

Second situation:  Brun's gotten lucky, he's wearing a lionheart breastplate and a tower shield.  With six dice to roll, he's also almost certain to get another shield die.  This means that unless you get that piercing strike dead last, it will go through a shield... injuring that tank that you really needed the piercing damage on.

You don't get to easily massacre the weaklings, but if you're in a serious fight piercing will still be helpful.  Similarly, if there's an armor being added that gives a reflect die upon rolling a shield, it will probably only help you against an opponent who's really swinging at you.  You will still have to weigh extra set results against the usefulness of getting a special in earlier... but hey, isn't strategy supposed to be part of the game?
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: faxwang on July 02, 2016, 08:03:25 AM
Can't wait to try it out. Keep up the hard work!!!
Love your game!!
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Blake Mizzi on July 02, 2016, 08:58:58 AM
Much of what Vryl has said about the new Battle System is true, sure in many cases now your reflect or pierce dice don't seem to do much,  maybe your poison attack lands after the killing blow, but in those cases you're winning the fight without the use of the special dice - Special dice now are game changers against the hard tough and heavy swingers. A character now who has a low chance to take out their opponent in battle might be able to deal enough to get in a poison attack and weaken a Brun or Barnaby. Thane can still easily slice through a heavily armoured target, etc...

We are intending on bring new equipment Item cards that lean into the new system and some of those will feature in the V1.4 update - like Poison Dagger above. Also Posion Dagger above is a very useful card, sure you gain a Rot for equipping it, but now if you're not corrupt it's a perfect tool to usefully burn away your Rot cards in battles.

The new system makes more and more sense the more you play it, it does make cards like Battle Axe more useful again, and there is a balance shift in the game with the new system in play. There is truth that it nerfs some cards and effects but it also opens up more possibilities and plays.

Of course we want to hear your feedback as you play and bend your brain around the system, I'm sure you all know that we HIGHLY value your comments and suggestions, some of the best additions to the game have come from you, the community. I will ask that we give the new system a good thrashing and pressure test it with the new gear AND new heroes rolling out, my bet is the new battle system is a solid keeper but we're not going keep something that is worse if it proves that way.

Thanks everyone!
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Biologist on July 02, 2016, 09:28:40 AM
Thanks for staying on top of the feedback! I'm sure these changes will work out in the long run, it's just going to take some time to adjust to things being different. Meanwhile, I know I'm glad you're all working to ensure Armello continues to be entertaining and engaging.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 02, 2016, 10:48:00 AM
3. Without negative priority, Static or Burned poison dice will almost never land.  The cases where you opponent doesn't have many shields will probably be the cases they die without poison.

Negative priority does exist though

1) Your earlier equipment is slotted in first, so if you had a Shining steel sword in place 1 and (Supposing it existed) a card that gave 2 piercing fight in slot 2, you would get 1 normal attack then 2 piercing as number 2 and 3 in the attack row

if the opponent had a card that gave reflect in slot 1 then it would reflect back to you and then you would pierce their first 2 defence afterwards

2)You just burn other cards before you use the rot card to activate the poison, then you are changing the place that the poison will take place, therefore allowing you to potentially dodge the opponents shields and get the hit in, as was said in other posts even just using it to counter reflect is also viable, has more variety in it than some are giving credit for currently I feel

The system give more opportunity to fake out the opponent and encourages bigger hand sizes to allow for more flexibility

That's actually the biggest problem I feel, it is yet another mechanic that encourages the use of the wits amulet over most others, as the most commonly seen amulet in play (from my experience at least) I feel that something should be done to make others a bit better as wits of best for a lot of strategies in the game, that might be a discussion for another time though

1. There's no gear that gives static piercing, even in 1.4.  Only dice based piercing.  Unless you "don't want" to nullify their reflection, you always want piercing dice to be first, but you CAN'T.  Only Thane can burn for piercing. 

2.  That's a lot of burns to make poison work correctly.  It shouldn't become even more so or low wits characters lose viability.

@Vyrl; At this time, there is no roll based Reflection effect, only Static or burning. 

I'm not "trying to massacre weaklings", I'm trying to make sure equipping expensive and rare gear provides a better result than common and cheap gear.   Too often interesting gear is too suboptimal next to common static gear, it's a newb trap and makes high end play boring.  Weakening Piercing (and making reflection and poison weak at the start) is just going to further this problem.

Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Vryl on July 02, 2016, 11:55:38 AM
@Vyrl; At this time, there is no roll based Reflection effect, only Static or burning. 

I'm not "trying to massacre weaklings", I'm trying to make sure equipping expensive and rare gear provides a better result than common and cheap gear.   Too often interesting gear is too suboptimal next to common static gear, it's a newb trap and makes high end play boring.  Weakening Piercing (and making reflection and poison weak at the start) is just going to further this problem.

I don't agree.  Piercing will still be perfectly valid in hard fights.  This balance change does very little to effect battles in which both players have half a dozen shields, and while you may want to focus on your inability to guarantee a pierce negating a reflection, I'm sure other players will be happy that they won't throw a pierce away just to avoid getting a regular attack against them.  I'm also sure that there are going to be people who are glad their reflections aren't automatically negated to avoid piercing attacks.

Is this different?  Yes.  Is piercing worse off than it was before?  Arguably yes, especially against those weak opponents you say you aren't trying to massacre.  Is the combat system as a whole worse for the change?  I doubt that, and I for one am glad that I won't have my bad games turn into hopeless ones as I face opponents with better fight, gear *and* piercing to ensure that whatever shields I do get are wasted.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 02, 2016, 01:25:36 PM
There are 3 kinds of opponents.
1. The ones you can't scratch without piercing.
2. The ones you can damage, but not a lot.  Hard to kill and harder to push out of the palace unless you outdefense them.
3. The ones that can be damaged easily.

Piercing was never intended for type 3, if they roll no shields it already did nothing.  Piercing is needed for types 1 and 2.  Type 1 might be unaffected by this change, but piercing gear needs to also be valuable for type 2. because type 1 is rare outside of barnaby players.  If 1 piercing dice causes you to do 2 damage instead of 1, then it was No Better than the common steel sword (worse because all piercing items are subject to a natural roll).  And now this new dice rule would take that scenario and potentially still make you only deal 1 damage if piercing was your last hit.

Reflection is going to be rarer than Piercing since it's only caused by Magna and 1 Treasure, instead of at least 1 item, Thane, and a Treasure.  Losing Piercing to negate a Reflection is still a net positive unless the battle was a type 1 vs type 1, because it's like getting a free shield for yourself (numerically superior to 1 sword).  Subsequently, a Reflection player will usually prefer to negate a pierce, because 1 shield is more valuable than 1 hit.

Your last comment confuses me, piercing is a tool of the underdog to defeat the juggernaut.  No one dominating the game would wield piercing weapons when they already have 6+ fight dice, unless there was another super strong opponent.  A bad game is not going to be worse if piercing is good; but gear orthodoxy WILL get worse with this change.

Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Insomnicron on July 02, 2016, 03:08:40 PM
I feel their is a lot of ABSOLUTES being thrown around considering:
- We don't have the full picture yet
- We certainly haven't played with this patch yet
- The past has illustrated just how much the LoG team play test things to get them to an interesting state
- it is possible that IF piercing being made more dynamic does weaken it, MAYBE that is a good thing for the over all state of the game once you factor in the new changes (which, again, we haven't played with yet)
- Poison is a SUPER powerful effect... the THREAT of it on dice far out ways the fact that it likely may not land... it's scary because far worse than dying to a fight, is killing your self with your own AP next turn :D

Its super fine to worry about the changes, and AFTER you've played them its fine if you don't like them... likewise voicing your concerns before hand makes sense... but do temper that with trust in the devs who made the game you love in the first place. :)

LoG got it this far, I trust that, even if I don't "GET" some of the changes now, they will make for a far more interesting game going forward.

Peace! :D
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 03, 2016, 05:37:58 AM
I'm on the testing team, I have played this patch,
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: dragoncrescent on July 03, 2016, 08:40:51 AM
Yeeeah... considering that Poisoned Dagger gives you no statistical in-combat bonus, the equipment will be useless for the majority of the time it's equipped. Even in combat, the item does not help you unless you 'feed' it, and then the dice you lock in will be 'middle priority' - locked in after equipment, but before dice roll. I really feel like the card is under-powered. I understand it's supposed to have added utility in destroying Rot cards for players who want to remain uncorrupted, but that's kind of a moot point. Equipping the thing to begin with gives you a point of Rot, meaning that 'pure' player just handed the Rotlord an extra dice.

Even a minor change of +1 dice in combat (making it a strictly superior version of the Battle Axe) would REALLY help it out. In the little testing I've gotten in on, I haven't been able to land a Poison hit once. Against characters who go super-tanky, the burnt Rot card will most likely just fall upon one of their equipped Shield items. It could be helpful to counteract someone's Reflecting shield, but otherwise... it's just very lackluster.

While I'm glad that LoG is testing out big shakeups like this, I'm equally glad that Blake has responded to the forum's concern. It seems like the devs are taking a wait-and-see approach: if the change doesn't work out, they've signaled that it can be reverted. I feel this kind of flexibility and willingness to accept critique is a rather positive direction for a development team. (Once again, I come from a background in Blizzard games. XD)

Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Blake Mizzi on July 03, 2016, 02:08:25 PM
Thanks Dragoncrescent!

And thank you too Kletian999 too, Kletian999 has been play testing the new patch and I always pay careful attention to feedback from our tight testing crew. Don't forget this change is a level up so we can grow on this new base and bring in more cool gear and there maybe a little "re-balancing" to be done with the current equipment in-game. We do have penciled some more items that will make use of the new effects in different ways - It might not happen next patch, but stay tuned.

One thing we wanted to encourage was a greater use of variety in kit equipment choices - I've personally found that with the new system in place, I do equip more "utility" items than I did before. I feel less drive to overload the shields or stacked swords. Combine that with the way the system encourages more card burning and we are steering Armello in a slightly new direction - overall I'm very happy where the "feel" of the game is going and what we can do with this system.

As you all know, we're here working on this baby, if the system proves to be a turn in the wrong direction, we'll make a new steering correction again, but our (and my) confidence is high. I completely expect that it will need a few patch cycles to "iron out", the hope is we'll end up in a better place :)




 
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Insomnicron on July 03, 2016, 03:44:20 PM
Awww man... egg (spirits stones?) on my face.

I was unaware that Kletian999 was a tester.

I'll just see my self out... sorry all :D
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: CravingForCookie on July 03, 2016, 08:55:46 PM
Pretty excited about the upcoming battle changes. Hopefully it will hit the PS4 a lot sooner than the last patch did  :)
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 04, 2016, 05:04:38 AM
I'm always glad to have a dialogue with Blake and the team.  1.4's new cards take little advantage of this priority change as it stands.  Yes new cards are always coming, yes old cards can even change; but that will be some time away from now and without feedback the right changes and cards might not come.

I find it surprising that utility cards feel more attractive to the dev team.  Piercing utility cards are weaker now, which was the only counter to someone with 3 pieces of shield gear.  Reflection and poison without priority make them little better than the cheapest old items ESPECIALLY versus someone with high shields, and wielding non-combat util gear will continue to lose fights to someone with armor.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Blake Mizzi on July 04, 2016, 11:17:43 AM
Stay around Insomnicron! I want to hear your thoughts too!

Kletian999 often hits things right on the head so I'm taking careful note, I do have confidence that the system will shine and come into its own - going back to playing the game with one less body feels crap now but at the time it was difficult to be sure that it was a good move. My belief is with a little time and experimentation, a balance in the next patch that we'll all agree the new system is better.

Keep keeping me honest Kletian999!

Thanks everyone :)
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Insomnicron on July 04, 2016, 11:31:26 AM
I won't go too far :D
I just offered my apologies (and again in a private message) to Kletian999 for making assumptions.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Combat on July 04, 2016, 10:35:56 PM
I appreciate that there is a group working behind the scenes to try out these changes & they do appear to have some issues with has been made currently, but my impression is that until a larger sample size is taken there is not a lot of definitive data that can be taken from it

Kletian999, you'll be able to tell us more about this but if someone does stack 3 shield items won't the pierce effects work fine against it?

I understand that Thane etc will be able to counter this but surely it's only if they have (in Thanes case) sword cards on hand

I might not be understanding the new system as yet without seeing it in play but it doesn't sound as clean cut as it appears to be getting made out to be

The poison effect may not be as strong vs a full defence build but will still fill a roll for items on a budget surely?

Kind of splurging thoughts here but want to get them out, sorry if this is re-hashing some already covered discussion

Edit: changed start of post
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 05, 2016, 12:54:19 PM
Stay around Insomnicron! I want to hear your thoughts too!

Kletian999 often hits things right on the head so I'm taking careful note, I do have confidence that the system will shine and come into its own - going back to playing the game with one less body feels crap now but at the time it was difficult to be sure that it was a good move. My belief is with a little time and experimentation, a balance in the next patch that we'll all agree the new system is better.

Keep keeping me honest Kletian999!

Thanks everyone :)

The +1 Body was an instant win in my opinion, I had no reservations against it  ;)  The only change I ever considered regarding it was "crediting" the body into wits for already high body characters.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 05, 2016, 01:06:07 PM
I appreciate that there is a group working behind the scenes to try out these changes & they do appear to have some issues with has been made currently, but my impression is that until a larger sample size is taken there is not a lot of definitive data that can be taken from it

Kletian999, you'll be able to tell us more about this but if someone does stack 3 shield items won't the pierce effects work fine against it?

I understand that Thane etc will be able to counter this but surely it's only if they have (in Thanes case) sword cards on hand

I might not be understanding the new system as yet without seeing it in play but it doesn't sound as clean cut as it appears to be getting made out to be

The poison effect may not be as strong vs a full defense build but will still fill a roll for items on a budget surely?

Kind of splurging thoughts here but want to get them out, sorry if this is re-hashing some already covered discussion

Edit: changed start of post

Sample size doesn't really come into it.  Combat is in most cases a math problem.  1+1 doesn't stop equaling 2 if you run it in your calculator too many times. 

Will piercing still work against a heavy shielder?  Yes.  However it's going to work less well against everyone else. 
The Key is OPPORTUNITY cost, what do you forfeit by equipping 1 piece of gear over anything else you find.

Players need to gear for either the most common or most critical situation; and their ability to gear is controlled by item deck luck and the game's gold liberality.  If I have a longbow in hand, but already have say a Bastard sword and 2 shielding items, I may or may not equip it based on whether there is already a megatank in the game.  Wielding the bow when nobody "needs" to be pierced means I'm going to lose more combats.  When you make gear too situational, or when it's situational benefit is too close to common benefits, then the smart decision is to avoid that piece of gear.   Nerfing the piercing effect makes it a riskier gamble with lower payoff venture away from the current "optimal" gear cards.

As for poison, since it's tied to early rolls or burns with the current selection of cards, it shows up very early making it too easily blocked.  Like I said before, if someone is failing to block enough to get poisoned, they likely failed enough block to die, especially if you hadn't worn a poison weapon but used a regular weapon.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Wessolf27 on July 06, 2016, 12:44:18 AM
I'm holding out a cautious hope that these new changes do benefit the game overall, but I would like to ask this question in the event that things might not go to plan.

If special dice priority did make a return, would it go "piercing > reflecting > normal dice > poison"? With special dice cancelling each other in the event that they match up?

But in any case, since equipment dice go first, would there be changes to certain equipment with the pierce dice? Like, longbows could give the pierce property to the "first" attack dice instead (whether they be from equips, burns, or rolls) and hand cannons either be an improved version of the longbow, or give 1 pierce die immediately?

Along with that, could poison daggers give the poison property to a rolled dice, provided they first burn a card?
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Combat on July 06, 2016, 03:42:32 AM
Sample size doesn't really come into it.  Combat is in most cases a math problem.  1+1 doesn't stop equaling 2 if you run it in your calculator too many times. 

Will piercing still work against a heavy shielder?  Yes.  However it's going to work less well against everyone else. 
The Key is OPPORTUNITY cost, what do you forfeit by equipping 1 piece of gear over anything else you find.

Players need to gear for either the most common or most critical situation; and their ability to gear is controlled by item deck luck and the game's gold liberality.  If I have a longbow in hand, but already have say a Bastard sword and 2 shielding items, I may or may not equip it based on whether there is already a megatank in the game.  Wielding the bow when nobody "needs" to be pierced means I'm going to lose more combats.  When you make gear too situational, or when it's situational benefit is too close to common benefits, then the smart decision is to avoid that piece of gear.   Nerfing the piercing effect makes it a riskier gamble with lower payoff venture away from the current "optimal" gear cards.

As for poison, since it's tied to early rolls or burns with the current selection of cards, it shows up very early making it too easily blocked.  Like I said before, if someone is failing to block enough to get poisoned, they likely failed enough block to die, especially if you hadn't worn a poison weapon but used a regular weapon.

Might need your spelunking hats for this one, I apologise for the long post

Maybe i'm not understanding the system, so i'll make an example and you can let me know if i'm correct?

I am Amber and have the Item Hand Cannon, you are Magna and have a Trusty Shield.

Our fight values are irrelevant for the discussion but we both have sword and shield symbol cards in hand.

Ok so now to the dice results;

I decide to go on the offensive and burn 2 cards resulting in 2 attacks being generated, through my dice being rolled I manage to roll two sword symbols which sit in the 3rd and 4th slot of generated dice

so we have 2 hits from cards and 2 additional ones which pierce (from dice roll), the piercing results sit in the 3rd and 4th slots

You, as Magna, generate a shield from your Trusty Shield and then decide you want to reflect some damage so you burn 2 cards at the start of the combat resulting in 2 shields that will reflect, you also roll 2 more shields from your dice sitting in the 3rd and 4th slots

Unless i'm mistaken in this the following result will take place;

The first hit is blocked by the shield as normal, the reflect damage will bounce the second damage that Amber rolled back to her, the first pierce effect will be cancelled by the second reflect effect, the last pierce effect will then go off and pierce the last  shield of Magna, Is this correct?

In my opinion the system we have now is more like a mathematical equation dealing in absolutes than the system that will be put in place, quite simply now a pierce effect is an automatic hit and the loss of a shield from the opponent but in the new system your pierce might hit anyway after the opponents shields have been used already so will just be "normal hits"  all this means is that pierce is weaker, but it's currently (arguably) too strong anyway, especially with only 1 character having ready accessibility of it

Best way to think of it is that in the new system 1 pierce + 1 hit vs 1 shield might actually equal 2, or it could also equal 1

If I have this combat example incorrect then it will of course invalidate the entire post up to this point and I apologise in advance if that is the case


Now I understand what your saying that the longbow or hand cannon might not be as strong because of the change, but there are plenty of items that sit in the category of "I don't want this item because it is weaker than X" if people choose to hold off on equipping those then that is their choice.....but that's part of the game!  If they don't want the items they still have to search for the ones they want

In my opinion, at the moment there is almost no situation that you would even want to use half the equipment unless you're Barnaby so changes to the longbow would not make it unique in this situation.  I certainly wouldn't scour the deck for a spy glass or sailors lantern, but you can bet that i'll do it for a tower shield or chain mail shirt.  The only way you can make items like this less viable would be something like making the royal shields ability a standard ability, giving people a higher chance to naturally roll a shield, or for that matter less chance to roll a hit would allow for different equipment to become more viable and actually make items that generate dice be more viable at the same time, but these are not changes to be made lightly as they would effect the entire core of the game.

You are right on the poison item, it will hit too early to be viable vs someone that has any moderate number of shields, even assuming it isnt cancelled in some way through other special dice

I do want to stick to my guns on this one, the new system sounds like it will be fine to me from the way I have interpreted the information, the issues you appear to have with the new system aren't really any different than issues you may have with the current system either and the only thing that has majorly changed is that pierce might not be quite as strong as it used to be making it more situational, in my eyes that is only a good thing.

Thanks for reading, hope we can get some more discussion going from this post

Edit: fixing quote
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 06, 2016, 06:08:35 AM
Your Amber produces 4 attacks, the last 2 pierce.
My Magna produces 4 shields, the middle 2 reflection.

Under the old system,  Piercing and reflect would nullify so neither side is damaged.
Under the new system, 1 pierce goes through, 1 pierce nullifies 1 reflect, and the last reflect adds 1 hit that Amber will have to try to block.

My issue is what happens when the numbers change, especially when Magna is not involved.  If Amber rolled 2 more hits before the sword symbols, those pierce would do nothing in the new system, that item slot with the guns could have been empty.  In the old system those pierces would have prevented 2 reflects (effectively 2 shields), or dealt 2 more damage to a nonreflector.  The guns were always adverse to card burning because their demand for natural rolls, but the new change provides further DISINCENTIVE to burning cards.   There is still no way to pierce outside of Thane's burns and natural rolls, so piercing showing up "too late" will be common.

As for Reflection's benefit: Magnas currently can only get 1 static reflection from gear, so while reflection will almost never be wasted outside of an overburning Magna, preventing a rolled pierce (1 shield) is worth more than reflecting a hit (1 sword) unless you absolutely needed that damage to kill or push your opponent.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Sekhmes on July 07, 2016, 12:12:15 PM
So, I'm a noob, I have very little time logged on game relative to probably everyone in here. 

Given the new system, I'm having a very difficult time wrapping my head around how Reflect dice are in any way balanced with other special dice.  I can see how the new system will enable many more builds and make some existing items more useful, but I'm also seeing some of the pitfalls.

Particularly, I'm having trouble imagining situations where full tank Barnaby and particularly Magna don't just dominate everything, for reasons mentioned by Kletian999, but also because Barns can be difficult to take down without special nonsense.

I like the idea, I see where it's going.  But of "special" dice, it just seems there are no downsides to reflect dice ever, whereas pierce and poison have the notable downside of not working at all.  Even if you don't use all your defensive dice, you are still surviving.  Burning shield cards and carrying armor is always useful, if not ideal.  But having to burn swords "correctly" is a high skill cap vs a zero brain required decision.

Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 07, 2016, 01:15:23 PM
Precisely Sekhmes.  This is precisely what I am rallying against.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Biologist on July 07, 2016, 01:39:57 PM
My first game as Thane under the new rules saw me get the Royal Banner and the Hand Cannons as my first two items. I eventually rounded out my gear with Chainmail. That particular setup worked really well, since there was a Tank Baranaby in that game, and I needed the piercing on a number of occasions. That said, I didn't have to worry too much about what the other players (River and Mercurio) were doing - I just tried to use stuff that would stop Barnaby and built my fight stat. If you can take down an 8+ shield Barn, you typically end up slaughtering anyone else.

 I didn't see reflect used at all that game, and I passed on using Poison Dagger (a good thing, since I drew almost no Rot symbols that game and the poison would have made little difference). I did see a couple uses of Snake Venom, but it mostly ended up poisoning guards.  I think the one time  a player got poisoned in combat, they died later the same turn in another fight. I can see where Poison Dagger is nice if you already have a bunch of Rot symbols in your hand (e.g. if some joker plays Call of the Worm on you), but it almost might as well read "change Rot rolls to Swords" in my opinion.

I also got the Food Taster follower, which I was actually happy about because there were a lot of Plague perils on the board after a King's Dec. Plus, the artwork made me laugh, great work there.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: dragoncrescent on July 08, 2016, 06:50:26 AM
I didn't see reflect used at all that game, and I passed on using Poison Dagger (a good thing, since I drew almost no Rot symbols that game and the poison would have made little difference). I did see a couple uses of Snake Venom, but it mostly ended up poisoning guards.  I think the one time  a player got poisoned in combat, they died later the same turn in another fight. I can see where Poison Dagger is nice if you already have a bunch of Rot symbols in your hand (e.g. if some joker plays Call of the Worm on you), but it almost might as well read "change Rot rolls to Swords" in my opinion.

I also got the Food Taster follower, which I was actually happy about because there were a lot of Plague perils on the board after a King's Dec. Plus, the artwork made me laugh, great work there.

It's an opossum. What does... oh. OH! Hahahahah! That's clever as heck, and it almost sailed RIGHT by me! Well done, LoG. :D

Yeah... at the moment, Poison Dagger is a little underwhelming. I was expecting it to be analogous to Longbow: Turn one Rot roll (which normally would be a miss) into a Poison Hit. The temporary boost in hit percentage  could make the card considerably more useful, as you would then have a 2/3 chance of rolling a successful hit. As it stands now, the card is useless until you feed it a Rot symbol. Depending on what deck you intend to draw from, those usually don't come up very often....
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 08, 2016, 10:57:35 PM
It could be much better if it was first Rot symbol period- rolled or burned.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Wessolf27 on July 09, 2016, 10:40:19 AM
Hrm... playing through the update, I find that not much has really changed in the way of shields and armors being better than weapons in most of my games. In fact, the one card with a reflect ability really is powerful as it has the potential of eating away at the opponent's extra shields, and it does run into what Kletian has said about never losing relevance considering it's priority and its very virtue of being a shield card.

But the fact that there is only one card that gives reflect vs. the several that do give pierce means that reflect dice don't necessarily overwhelm strategies, but they do make weapon cards a slight disincentive if one wants to pack a pierce weapon. (Or if you're Thane, make weapons something one might slightly avoid in favor more of something like a Shimmering Shield-Berserker combo)

So, I can see that reflect dice are going to be pesky, (especially once Magna comes into play (even more so with her and shimmering shield together)) but as of now, they are somewhat fair if only because they are rare.

Poison dice on the other hand sorely need extra weapon cards and sword burns in order for them to be even useful. They have never triggered vs. heroes for me and the two instances I have seen only worked vs. Banes. Rot does get a slight boost to being less of a nuisance roll for non-corrupted heroes, but the difficulty of having them trigger does make them less than appealing. (Our friend, the Poison Taster at least can protect against poisons outside of battle as well, but the poison dagger and snake venom cards see little benefit as weapons.)

The way that they could become deadlier is if they are only relegated to rolled dice (or give the dagger a reusable snake venom ability if a player burns a rot card) or if they are given a form of anti-priority.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Biologist on July 09, 2016, 11:25:27 AM
The way that they could become deadlier is if they are only relegated to rolled dice (or give the dagger a reusable snake venom ability if a player burns a rot card).

I honestly think I might like it if Poison Dagger straight up gave the same benefit as Snake Venom, but to a lesser degree (turn first rolled Rot symbol into poison hit rather than first two) instead of being based off card burn. Snake venom has the benefit of always being useful (arguably less so if you're actually corrupted), since it turns critical failures into hits, which helps even if the poison gets cancelled.

My problem with the Poison Dagger as it stands is that, even with the argument that you can ditch Rot symbol cards more easily, I have no strong desire to touch the thing. If I'm looking for a Rot victory, I'll equip it until something better comes along, but the majority of  my Rot symbol cards are going to be played/equipped, not burnt in combat. If I'm not going for Rot, I'm left with a dilemma: should I equip the dagger and accept some infection now for a chance to clear Rot symbols from my hand later? Some of this comes down to whether I already have gear and/or Rot points, but given that it's hard to permanently clear infection my answer is generally "no" unless I have Cleansing Wyld available.

Poison Dagger feels like Raven's Beak dagger felt pre-buff: I see what they're trying to do with it, and I can appreciate that, but I don't think it's quite where it needs to be.

Edit: I'm considering Poison Dagger separately from the challenges facing the combat poison mechanic as a whole. Also, I do appreciate that not every card can be extremely powerful, and maybe PD's rather small (in my opinion) niche is a conscious decision. I'm fine with having to make the best choices with the cards I'm dealt and so forth. It's just that as an introduction to a potentially cool new mechanic, PD feels somewhat underwhelming. I'm sure if nothing else, though, we'll see more items and spells that will expand poison's use in combat in a future update.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Teii on July 10, 2016, 09:06:03 AM
I don't like that longbow and hand cannons are weaker, but I wouldn't say the loss of priority is bad.  First of all, longbow was never very good.  I doubt many people used it in 1.3 or it made attacking a 6 shield Barnaby a good idea.  If someone has good equipment, you're going to generally avoid fighting them.  This isn't limited to shields either.  I'm not attacking someone with a bane blade and war horn with a full party.  Most people likely went from not using longbow and avoiding tanks in 1.3 to not using longbow and avoiding tanks in 1.4. 

I do think the new attack queue will be better in the long run, but old cards should have been updated before it went live.  If special dice had unique priority, there would likely be issues with adding more special dice cards in the future.  The lack of priority lets cards be changed to more consistently achieve their intended function.  For example, longbow / hand cannons could be changed to make the last 1/2 rolled hits pierce when attacking.  That would make the items good against high shield enemies or when used by low fight characters.  The items get more consistent because you essentially guarantee damage.

Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 10, 2016, 12:13:36 PM
The purpose of the longbow was never to kill, it was to scratch the 6+ shield opponents so when they fail to scratch you, you can push them out of the way or out of the palace.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Blake Mizzi on July 11, 2016, 06:32:00 PM
I'm carefully reading all the threads and posts to do with game balance and our cards, especially since the V1.4 Update and new battle system has gone out.

There will be card balances inevitably coming - keep the conversation, comments and feedback flowing :)

Thanks everyone!
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: The Observer on July 11, 2016, 06:44:05 PM
The purpose of the longbow was never to kill, it was to scratch the 6+ shield opponents so when they fail to scratch you, you can push them out of the way or out of the palace.

Except this never works anyways - since you didn't equip shields, the tank individual simply hurts you far more than the 1 point of damage you MIGHT score.

So longbow also fails in that regard.

Want to help piercing but still retain the current system? Longbow - 1 static piercing, hand cannons, 2 static piercing attack. None of this "rolled swords" nonsense. Done.

I'm carefully reading all the threads and posts to do with game balance and our cards, especially since the V1.4 Update and new battle system has gone out.

There will be card balances inevitably coming - keep the conversation, comments and feedback flowing :)

Thanks everyone!

Personally, I would rather the card balances have come with the update instead of having to wait months for 1.5 to come out. That way the game can be as balanced as possible while still not exacerbating the already dominant strategy.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: dragoncrescent on July 11, 2016, 09:08:34 PM
Except this never works anyways - since you didn't equip shields, the tank individual simply hurts you far more than the 1 point of damage you MIGHT score.

So longbow also fails in that regard.

Want to help piercing but still retain the current system? Longbow - 1 static piercing, hand cannons, 2 static piercing attack. None of this "rolled swords" nonsense. Done.

You know, I was thinking this same thing just the other day. We have Hero's Shield, so I bet there's going to be some treasure in an upcoming patch that grants 1 static Piercing Hit...
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Wessolf27 on July 12, 2016, 01:54:14 AM
Well, there's one thing that might be important to consider now that dice priority is a thing:

The order of your equipment would probably be important as well. Like, assuming someone wears a second armor/shield, having a Hero's shield on the first slot is probably going to be different from having a Hero's shield on the third slot. The Blacksmith's ability probably would also influence this.

Has anyone tested this yet?
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 12, 2016, 01:30:43 PM
Yes, gear position is now important with the loss of special dice priority.  Due to the inability to move equipment cards outside of being Barnaby, I feel that is an unwanted wrinkle to add to the combat mechanics.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Biologist on July 12, 2016, 01:41:06 PM
Yes, gear position is now important with the loss of special dice priority.  Due to the inability to move equipment cards outside of being Barnaby, I feel that is an unwanted wrinkle to add to the combat mechanics.

Reading this just made me realize something. It would make sense, going forward, if LoG gave us the ability to shuffle the position of our equipment in the inventory slots (not replacing except when playing as Barnaby, just re-positioning).  That would allow for more strategic use of equipment and wouldn't punish players if they happen to find gear in an unfortunate order. Though I admit, it would increase the learning curve somewhat for newer players.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Combat on July 15, 2016, 12:34:02 AM
I haven't commented much since my previous posts because I wanted to get some hands on time with the game before commenting again.  I've had a little time with it now so I feel a bit more educated and can feel more confident in what i'm saying;

Pierce is still a viable ability and is still strong in it's current incarnation, not as strong as it was obviously, but still good, the fact that it sometimes isn't used is ok in my eyes, if your getting to the stage of busting an opponents defence without it you probably didn't need it anyway so it means the strong don't completely smash everyone else, with the changes to Pierce it also does allow for some other equipment to be used in it's place, though I would also add that shield items are still by far the most viable pieces of equipment and will stay that way unless the regularity of rolling shields is increased in some way.

Reflect (on the other hand) in its current incarnation is way too strong, it actually sits higher on the list of power than old pierce does in my opinion, it gives an automatic reflect in slot 1 and that's hard to deal with unless you are thane, which means that the character with it has a massive advantage, i'd put this new item as high on the list of sought items as the old blacksmith.

I haven't worked out a way to actually balance it as yet unfortunately, you could make it that the first rolled shield will pierce, which means that the item is strong but doesn't actually give you any shields on it's own, much like the longbow, but it's a treasure, so maybe it gives a shield and lets your first rolled shield be a reflect instead?  Or perhaps reflect is such a strong ability it is enough to just hand it out on first defence and leave it at that?  Because shields are the only natural way to defend it would always mean the first block is a reflect, always, that makes it so that (assuming you have pierce) you have to roll a sword in the first slot to counter it which is a little bit too RNG to be particularly fair, or, now that I think about it, you could use the current poison dagger to counter it, but then you would be blocked anyway 'cos shields > swords.

Poison as an ability that can be handed out in combat is a great idea and I really like it, but I think the execution is a bit off, why not make the equip-able item like the snake venom and allow the first rot dice rolled become the poison instead of card burned, or (and this will be pretty op) allow all rot cards become poison, heck you could even let all rot dice for corrupted people poison and not allow it for anyone else?

I do feel the poison dagger as it stands is not a good item and needs reworked before it will be useful for anything other than getting some quick rot to become corrupted.

Fortify is a nice ability but I have a few ideas that may help it become more interesting.  If you fortify a  settlement allow the person who owns the settlement to travel through on 1 ap rather than making it a 2 ap crossing for everyone, or, allow a settlement with a fortify status to produce an additional gold?  Outside of that I think fortify is a great ability and will allow for more depth of play in certain situations.

I think the addition changes in the change log were generally a good idea, adding in more places you could use the cat burglar etc just made these cards more viable and false orders is actually usable now!  The blacksmith was extremely op and is now fair, thanks for this change in particular.

The only exception to this, I feel, is Spy Network, I liked how it could be used to kings guard & actually think it may be better if it was also to be allowed to be used to any creature, though this may not make much sense for the banes I guess, if it isn't changed I think a price reduction to 2 would make it fairer again, especially since you still cant play it to yourself.

Overall I really like this patch, I just think a few changes here and there will allow for more viability in items, which is where the big focus should be

These are my opinions, i'd be interested to see what others think of them.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Combat on July 15, 2016, 12:35:25 AM
Yes, gear position is now important with the loss of special dice priority.  Due to the inability to move equipment cards outside of being Barnaby, I feel that is an unwanted wrinkle to add to the combat mechanics.

Reading this just made me realize something. It would make sense, going forward, if LoG gave us the ability to shuffle the position of our equipment in the inventory slots (not replacing except when playing as Barnaby, just re-positioning).  That would allow for more strategic use of equipment and wouldn't punish players if they happen to find gear in an unfortunate order. Though I admit, it would increase the learning curve somewhat for newer players.

To build on this you could make it cost 1ap to move the slot of 2 pieces of equipment?  Seems like it could be viable.

Barnaby, of course, would still be able to do this for free as part of his power.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: dragoncrescent on July 15, 2016, 12:27:44 PM
Hrm… seems like you’re more or less in agreement with a lot to the comments that have been made so far! Blacksmith got a needed nerf, Poison Dagger is underpowered, etc.

I would probably have to disagree with the point on Reflecting Shields. At the moment, the relative strength of Hero’s Shield isn’t a big issue. It is the only item in the game that does so, leaving it a nonfactor in most games. Additionally, it only grants one defense. A particularly aggressive player could probably just eat the damage and punch their way through the defender’s relatively low shield count.

At the moment, Hero’s Shield almost guarantees you 1 damage to a foe. That’s not too dissimilar to Poppet, which is almost guaranteed to deal 2 damage. As much as it goes against the spirit of the card, using Hero’s Shield or Poppet ‘aggressively’ could be considered worthwhile strategies. -__-;;

I feel the card is acceptably balanced. I could, in the future, see there being a card similar to Hand Cannons, but for Reflection - first two rolled Shields become Reflecting. That would, in turn, be balanced in the way that it gives you more opportunities for unique dice, but the player has to rely on RNG to get them. Additionally, it could be a Treasure. Thus, the rate it will actually show up is reduced.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: The Observer on July 15, 2016, 06:31:02 PM
To be frank, "rolled" anything is a pretty bad idea. These sorts of things should be stuck on as additional effects, or small, fairly inconsequential things. Having a piece of equipment whiff, especially with such a pathetic effect as turning 1 attack into piercing (as discussed above by Kletian)

Remember what you're being asked to give up when "rolled (symbol)" comes up.

1. You aren't allowed to burn cards. No card cycling for you. If you're a low wits character and need to change your hand, too bad, you're not getting the effect.
2. You put yourself at the mercy of the RNG. Oh, you really wanted that rolled sword? Too bad all of your other dice missed when you could've burned cards to minimise your exposure to RNG. And then you miss anyway to the tune of ~33% even with six dice rolled.
3.  Anything which decreases your dice count, from equipment to mirror image, screws you over.


People take ruby because it's the only offensive rat clan ring. Turquoise is the only other ring worth using, and that one's defensive. It's popular because of lack of alternatives. If you gave me a ring that gave me 1 extra sword in battle? I'd take that over ruby.

Snake venom is okay because it doesn't just have an effect on the roll, it also turns a miss into a hit. People generally use snake venom for shielding against misses against the king, rather than for the poison effect. That's very telling - that the intended effect of a card is not what people generally use it for. In this case, the power, type of card, and lack of similar alternatives make it okay to use. If snake venom comes up while I'm aiming to attack the king, I may hold onto it for a round or two.

Compared to these? Longbow and hand cannons are hilariously underpowered and situational compared to alternative offensive measures like heavy flail and bastard sword. Adding insult to injury is that the situationality of both cannot be controlled (unlike heavy flail or oak spear). There are plentiful alternatives to rolled piercing, better alternatives (like mentioned above, if piercing puts you from 1 to 2 damage, you might as well equip SSS which is more reliable)

At this point, I think the only item worse than longbow/hand cannons is bane blade. At least bane's claw doesn't say "okay, 50% chance the bane will attack you, 50% it does squat". At least royal pardon doesn't go "hey, roll a shield on your wits or else the king's guards will attack you anyway." These items are situational but reliable. Longbow/hand cannons are both situational and unreliable, pushing them into "never use" territory. Got hand cannons last game as Sana. Burned the card first chance I got.

I'm sure you can find a fringe situation where rolled piercing might be useful (oh no, what if the king rolled 7 defense and you're on the last day AND you got lucky?), but the time spent holding or equipping that card is a liability, especially when it's so weak and there are so many better, more generic alternatives?

I'll repeat: longbow, one static piercing.  Hand cannons, two static piercing, or if that's too daring and scary, (oh no! Shield stacking might not be the dominant uncontested no-brainer strategy now!) or overlapping on poppet too much, one static piercing and one die. None of this "rolled swords" nonsense.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Combat on July 15, 2016, 07:33:21 PM
I would probably have to disagree with the point on Reflecting Shields. At the moment, the relative strength of Hero’s Shield isn’t a big issue. It is the only item in the game that does so, leaving it a nonfactor in most games. Additionally, it only grants one defense. A particularly aggressive player could probably just eat the damage and punch their way through the defender’s relatively low shield count.

I should have quantified my opinion to reflect to include additional theory as to where they go with it, Hero's Shield in it's self I find pretty strong, as much to do with the placement of a guaranteed reflect as being difficult to block, but my thoughts go further to what other cards could be made using it's effect as well as to the new character who will have easy access to it, her ability worries me a lot, I think it will be extremely overpowered if reflect stays in it's current state

As a side not to this, yeah if someone doesn't care about defending they can absolutely bash through this, but as is the case with a full shield build vs a full attack build the full shield build will most likely die, but then the full attack build will almost certainly die as well short of having massive health supply, the defence build generally just has the higher success rate since it allows you to stay on the board and not get reset back to your base after every 1 - 2 fights

Poppet is a bit of a different item, since it encourages a different style of play, poppet BTW is one of the cards that I think of as an extremely viable item that doesn't sit in the general category of sought after items, it's situational enough to not be a 100% use but is good enough to seriously consider when you get your hands on it.  It is one of the "utility" items that is very well balanced within the game and one I think of when the devs talk about utility items and wanting them to be more usable.  I don't really consider it so much of a defensive or offensive item as a quirky combo, poppet alone does not guarantee safety though, while reflect will give more up front certainty.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Combat on July 15, 2016, 09:34:10 PM
To be frank, "rolled" anything is a pretty bad idea. These sorts of things should be stuck on as additional effects, or small, fairly inconsequential things. Having a piece of equipment whiff, especially with such a pathetic effect as turning 1 attack into piercing (as discussed above by Kletian)

Remember what you're being asked to give up when "rolled (symbol)" comes up.

1. You aren't allowed to burn cards. No card cycling for you. If you're a low wits character and need to change your hand, too bad, you're not getting the effect.
2. You put yourself at the mercy of the RNG. Oh, you really wanted that rolled sword? Too bad all of your other dice missed when you could've burned cards to minimise your exposure to RNG. And then you miss anyway to the tune of ~33% even with six dice rolled.
3.  Anything which decreases your dice count, from equipment to mirror image, screws you over.


People take ruby because it's the only offensive rat clan ring. Turquoise is the only other ring worth using, and that one's defensive. It's popular because of lack of alternatives. If you gave me a ring that gave me 1 extra sword in battle? I'd take that over ruby.

Snake venom is okay because it doesn't just have an effect on the roll, it also turns a miss into a hit. People generally use snake venom for shielding against misses against the king, rather than for the poison effect. That's very telling - that the intended effect of a card is not what people generally use it for. In this case, the power, type of card, and lack of similar alternatives make it okay to use. If snake venom comes up while I'm aiming to attack the king, I may hold onto it for a round or two.

Compared to these? Longbow and hand cannons are hilariously underpowered and situational compared to alternative offensive measures like heavy flail and bastard sword. Adding insult to injury is that the situationality of both cannot be controlled (unlike heavy flail or oak spear). There are plentiful alternatives to rolled piercing, better alternatives (like mentioned above, if piercing puts you from 1 to 2 damage, you might as well equip SSS which is more reliable)

At this point, I think the only item worse than longbow/hand cannons is bane blade. At least bane's claw doesn't say "okay, 50% chance the bane will attack you, 50% it does squat". At least royal pardon doesn't go "hey, roll a shield on your wits or else the king's guards will attack you anyway." These items are situational but reliable. Longbow/hand cannons are both situational and unreliable, pushing them into "never use" territory. Got hand cannons last game as Sana. Burned the card first chance I got.

I'm sure you can find a fringe situation where rolled piercing might be useful (oh no, what if the king rolled 7 defense and you're on the last day AND you got lucky?), but the time spent holding or equipping that card is a liability, especially when it's so weak and there are so many better, more generic alternatives?

I'll repeat: longbow, one static piercing.  Hand cannons, two static piercing, or if that's too daring and scary, (oh no! Shield stacking might not be the dominant uncontested no-brainer strategy now!) or overlapping on poppet too much, one static piercing and one die. None of this "rolled swords" nonsense.

A lot of the points here are good The Observer, your right that roll X does encourage more of a tempered use of card burning but I don't think it excludes it, if you have a low hand size sure your going to struggle but that's the cost of not choosing to go down that route, you will always be stuck with less choice and harder decision with a low wits, and the removal of dice will hurt you too, but that's also ok because then the other items that nobody uses will have more impact under those situations, that' the kind of niche use those items have.

Your observation on the rings is correct too, but I feel it's more that the other two rings are just not that impressive for the rats, evade and the exploding swords are far more powerful abilities, having static scout areas is not controllable and the stealth is not active enough to be a big deal, especially since cards that are played to settlements can be played even if nobody is there, so they will still hit a stealthed hero all the same.

Combat seems to be the main sticking point for everyone and this is the real meat and potatoes of the post so here we go, I feel that 1  - 2 guaranteed pierce will actually remove most of the point from stacking shields & highly imbalance the game, your talking about it being a no-brainer to stack shields, but adding in an effect that automatically counters shields, (and this is rolled or equipped) is an even bigger no-brainer.  Shields (outside of equipment) are extremely hard to roll, you talk about pierce failing a lot currently, regular shields are exactly the same odds, also factor into this that if someone doesn't have any equipped shield items, they will almost never block vs someone that actually does have a pierce item short of a ton of RNG, so if a character gets lucky and finds an early hand cannon you can kiss surviving vs them goodbye for the early game at least.

The reason that shield items are used so much is that you have a hard time rolling them, shield items are stronger than attack items because attack isn't hard to come by, a 50% is fine for a hit, those odds are pretty good so go ahead and roll the dice for them, a 16.66% (which is a 1 in 6 chance) is much more of a problem to bank on for a shield, so after a short amount of time people will naturally gravitate to shield builds, it's not perfect, but it's a damn sight more reliable than the alternatives, if you take that away by adding in the 100% pierce, what are the alternatives?  How do you stay alive at that point?  The meta will have to change because of that, which isn't a bad thing but the game will be more frustrating for newer players since it will be hard to defend all the time and they will die more.  There's nothing more frustrating for a new player than to think they understand the game only to have the rug pulled from under them, I get the impression your proposed pierce would do that.

From a more experienced players thought process my opinion is that the game will become more static as players become afraid to move near each other since they cannot  survive vs them.  Though as a side note to this it may make cards such as Merchants Agreement and Allies Pact more powerful because of this.  It could also encourage more player negotiations but i'm not sure how much there can be since there are only a few cards that allow players to interact in this way?

It will mean that quests are harder to finish or you bank on certain cards like banish to send you across the map to quickly finish them before being killed and starting the process of searching for the travel cards over again.

It will encourage less combat and more magic as it becomes less certain than it is now, players will blast each other with spells to maintain certainty & to remove threats without endangering themselves.

Since pierce is unavoidable the viability of evade is removed as it is now 1 - 2 static damage per encounter.

I appreciate that there aren't all that many pierce items and the chances of everyone getting one are slim but i'm creating scenarios for my point.  If one person has pierce and the other doesn't at the power level you suggest it will be very hard to deal with them, they will have to be focused or avoided which isn't the most interesting gameplay for anyone involved in hte game

As for the other part of your post on banes claw etc, I have been talking to some players and we have our own opinions on some of the utility items, while they are designed to allow for other play styles to exist those styles are not really viable from anything but a fluff perspective in my opinion.  We have some suggestions as to how these items could be addressed to make them more powerful while still keeping the flavour of the item intact, but I don't want to take away from the main topic in this post.

The changes you propose aren't terrible, but I think the full implication of them needs to be thought out fully before any drastic changes like this are taken.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Combat on July 15, 2016, 10:00:22 PM
After thinking hard on these posts I have a suggested change for Reflect, rather than actually giving a direct hit back why not make it an additional dice when the reflect is encountered, kind of like the kings ability if you miss vs him?

Just a thought but I think I prefer this, just throwing it out there
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 15, 2016, 10:49:52 PM
I don't think reflect is too strong as is, because it can still be blocked.  Ergo, the Heros shield is really just a maruders gauntlet (1 sword 1 shield) unless it has the chance to nullify a pierce (then it's 2 shields worth, or 1 shield and 1 heal).

I agree with Combat that pre-nerf piercing was probably fine, getting full static pierce gear outside of a rare treasure would be pretty rough on the game.  Tying it to a burn or a natural roll would be the strongest I'd buff it.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: dragoncrescent on July 16, 2016, 07:57:52 AM
On The Observer's points, I'm kind of mixed. To begin, I don't think rolling for an effect is a bad mechanic. I mean, this is how a great deal of board games work. There are certainly cards where the mechanic is better applied. Hand Cannons is a good example. As a Treasure card, the item costs no gold and does not reduce your Dice count, the way Warhammer or Battle Armor does. The cost of the card is effectively that it takes up an inventory slot and might not work. The item is designed in such a way that you might get no use of it, will probably get a little use, or cause wanton destruction with it. This is simply the delta of randomness, and Hand Cannons in its current incarnation is pretty decent. Keep in mind, during the last patch notes, LoG described a desire to move people away from stacking and encourage them to use items that give you more dice.

I'm not going to disagree about Poison Dice. That point has been beaten to death, and I think we all agree they are pretty underpowered at the moment. It is part of the attempt to move people towards a desire for more dice rather that static symbols that needs improvement.

On the topic of Longbow... I will agree. The item is... okay. I generally skip over it. I wouldn't mind if the Longbow became analogous to Hero's Shield: 1 static Piercing attack on equip. It would probably need a gold increase to justify the improvement. But overall, I strongly agree with Combat's view: Piercing Attacks CAN NOT become prevalent. Consistent carnage would not only break the game, but reduce its fun factor for both veterans and newbies alike! This is why I feel Hand Cannons is in a good place: it could provide a LOT of Piercing, but it's unreliable. That unreliability isn't an oversight, it's a balance.

Lastly, on the discussion of Magna - yeah, I'm interested in how strong she will be too. The balance to Thane's power lies in his ability to draw and keep Sword cards in hand. While the same is true for Magna, she has more opportunities available simply because of the Shimmer Shield card. Suddenly having a handful of Shield symbols could mean a death sentence to some poor fool who attacks her (or whom she attacks).
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: The Observer on July 16, 2016, 12:22:39 PM
Will reply more in-depth later, but consider this: 1 static piercing isn't a lot. Just something which actually allows the items to do their job. I'd be okay with a gold increase to 4 gold for longbow. Longbow is already rare, which means 2 in the whole deck - this usually results in 2 at most being in play the whole game.

Everyone seems to be in a tizzy over the idea of one static piercing/1 static + 1 die, yet no one seems to be complaining terribly about poppet, which is effectively two static piercing. Given the magic cost decrease of cleansing wyld, it's perfectly reasonable to equip poppet.

Let's get this straight: 1 extra assured damage does not mean instant carnage. I didn't argue for huge amounts of piercing to negate all shields. Carnage all the time is not fun, but 1 static piercing does not mean carnage. And let's face it, being stonewalled bar a lucky string of wyld crits is not fun, either.

Equipment has three facets to it: situationality, reliability, and power. Combat missed my point completely about what I was trying to say about bane's claw - it's situational, but when the situation calls for it it's reliable and powerful. Something like battle armour or shining steel sword is useful in many situations and reliable, but not so great on power compared to alternatives. Royal shield is powerful and non-situational, but unreliable in that it depends on what would ordinarily be misses.

Longbow and hand cannons are neither. They're situational, weak (HC less so), and unreliable to boot, with much better alternatives.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Teii on July 16, 2016, 02:06:22 PM
Everyone seems to be in a tizzy over the idea of one static piercing/1 static + 1 die, yet no one seems to be complaining terribly about poppet, which is effectively two static piercing. Given the magic cost decrease of cleansing wyld, it's perfectly reasonable to equip poppet.

Longbow and hand cannons are neither. They're situational, weak (HC less so), and unreliable to boot, with much better alternatives.

If you don't survive, poppet is the same thing as having an empty slot.  Poppet doesn't help you force a retreat.  Gaining rot is usually more costly in the long term than 4 gold.  Poppet doesn't literally negate shields; it uses an opponent's weak offense against them.  Just because poppet is kinda like piercing doesn't mean it produces identical results.

Static piercing at the front of the queue would shift the items to the other extreme; they'd be good 9 times out of 10, powerful and have guaranteed effects.  You'd at least have to limit it to when attacking, make hand cannons damage the user or something.  Maybe hand cannons can be 1 static pierce without a penalty or clause because it's a treasure, but certainly not longbow.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Bartimeus on July 19, 2016, 07:18:14 AM
If you want the hand cannon be a little more powerful, but not to powerful maybe you just need to change what dice  gives you the piercing damage. You can do that:The first rolled sword and the first rolled sun (or moon if it's the night) pierce opponent defense. If you do that you have much more chance to have the first piercing damage and a little more chance to have the second piercing damage.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Combat on July 20, 2016, 02:14:28 AM
If you want the hand cannon be a little more powerful, but not to powerful maybe you just need to change what dice  gives you the piercing damage. You can do that:The first rolled sword and the first rolled sun (or moon if it's the night) pierce opponent defense. If you do that you have much more chance to have the first piercing damage and a little more chance to have the second piercing damage.

There is only 1 of each symbol on the dice, so the chance would be the same, it's still a 1 in 6 chance
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on July 20, 2016, 06:17:56 AM
What he means is that, the rolls could have
0 swords, 0 Time- no piercing
1+ swords, 0 Time- 1 piercing
0 swords, 1+ Time- 1 Piercing
1+sword, 1+time- 2 piercing.

This makes getting 1 piercing easier, while the chance of 2 piercing is basically the same.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Bartimeus on July 21, 2016, 12:42:59 AM

There is only 1 of each symbol on the dice, so the chance would be the same, it's still a 1 in 6 chance
The first dice is 1 in 3 chance, but the second dice it's still 1 in 6.
What he means is that, the rolls could have
0 swords, 0 Time- no piercing
1+ swords, 0 Time- 1 piercing
0 swords, 1+ Time- 1 Piercing
1+sword, 1+time- 2 piercing.

This makes getting 1 piercing easier, while the chance of 2 piercing is basically the same.
Yes, exactly .However, You need to have the first piercing damage to have the second percing damage, so if the first piercing come sooner the second dice come sooner too. So you have the 2 piercing damage sooner too.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Combat on July 21, 2016, 08:21:18 AM
Sorry when I wrote this I was apparently having a senior moment, you are correct that what you said would increase the odds, apologies, it was only when I was thinking on it today that I realised I was completely wrong in what I was saying
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Bartimeus on July 23, 2016, 05:14:10 AM
Don't worry, your message wasn't aggressive at all. And I was happy that two people perfectly understood my text. English is not my first language, so I never know if people can understand me. And even in my first language when I begin to speak about Math most people can't follow, so your understanding is far better that you think.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: L4g34s on August 12, 2016, 02:53:33 AM
Unless getting a kill from poison gives you any kind of prestige the poisoned dagger quite sucks, considering that you have to burn a rot it won't be that efective if you aren't corrupted, so to use it properly you need to be corrupted, you need to land the poison attack, and you need to in the first place have a rot card to burn, but considering the cards with a rot symbol its probably a bad idea since most f them give you rot, with exceptions of hot rot wine(and you want it to kill the king without risking getting attacked), cursed lands(and that would be a good card to burn), dark influence(and you want to use it on yourself to get even more rot), rotten fog(another good card to burn with it), Bane's claw(third good card to burn). So there are 3 cards that would be good to burn when you have poisoned knife, the cards with rot symbol not mentioned here actually give you rot, so it would be a no go.

#1. Burning Rot cards in combat doesn't give you rot. I don't know where you're getting that from.

#2. The item says itself that if you burn a rot card, it will give you 1 poisoned hit. It does not say you have to be corrupted for that to take place. The card usually takes precedence over game rules.

#3. Who says you never want Rot? Rot victory is something you can do.

#1. Didn't say they did when you burned them, its just not worth it if you are going for a rot victory, since most cards with rot symbols give you rot when used.

#2. It does, but to equip it will give you 1 rot, that will give you damage every dawn, that will make fights against banes and the king a bit harder. Thats why I said its not worth if you're not going for a rot victory.

#3. Rot victories are oportunity earned, if you go into the game with a "lets do a rot win" mindset you may garantee a defeat, since you will probably be low in prestige do to suicide at banes, once you do get corrupted you don't get prestige for killing banes. So unless you have more rot than the king you are pretty sure to defeat, since killing the king is almost certain death, you have little to none spirit stones, prestige is probably low unless you got a bunch of kills, leaving no way to win unless a shitton of luck.

Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Across-The-Board on August 30, 2016, 07:48:09 AM
Rot victories should be opportunity earned, but in reality they really aren´t. It takes so much planning and effort to get one that I really can´t see it happen in a normal game if the player was not aiming for it in the beginning (unless the other players plays a lot of rot cards to him or her).
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Bartimeus on September 13, 2016, 06:58:41 AM
Rot victories should be opportunity earned, but in reality they really aren´t. It takes so much planning and effort to get one that I really can´t see it happen in a normal game if the player was not aiming for it in the beginning (unless the other players plays a lot of rot cards to him or her).
Rot is black magic. Playing rot is supposed to be hard, because rot cards are powerful but have no cost.More you play with rot more the fights against Banes and the King are hard and more you are weak.If you have a lot of Rot points you pay the cost of playing with dark magic, you are doomed. So , yes when you are corrupted, the victory is harder to obtain.
 When you play a rot card, the game is unbalanced in your favor (it's a powerful free card) but later in the game the game is unbalanced in your defavor. The devil want is due.
Title: Re: v1.4 Battle Tides - Battle System Enhancement
Post by: Kletian999 on September 13, 2016, 12:54:51 PM
Bringing this thread back to topic.  The Dice priority STILL needs to return, even with subsequent card changes:

1. We have  a static Piercing weapon, the rather rare Silver lance treasure.  Being something that's only seen a once a few games it really doesn't justify that piercing is often wasted.

2. Now the Longbow and the HandCannon are burn based instead of roll based.  While this can help prevent wasting in the new system, it often means that the effect will happen less than when it was luck based.  Making them worse.   If we rolled back both changes, they'd be better than they are now.  But if we can't turn them back to normal, they need more flexibility in burns.

3.  The Iron Pike has Longbows old effect, plus reflecting instead of piercing when defending.  The Reflection happens enough and is cheap enough to be a good weapon by its own, so the often wasted piercing isn't considered a loss. 

4. Poison dice are a giant mess.  They are too hard to activate, too easy to block, or too easy to land on a target that's going to die before they walk.

5. Reflection is doing ok, but it'd only be better if priority let it reliably counter piercing.